The Book of Revelation

[Douggg]

Based on the text below wicked angels have already been cast down and are now in chains.

2Pe_2:4　 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jud_1:6　 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Yes, there are those angels who kept not their first estate and took human woman as wives. But that is a certain group of wicked angels, not all of them

The seals book found in Revelation 6 is a summary of the whole Book of Revelation.
Christ removes the seals one at a time and then John is told... "Come and see."

I would not say all of Revelation, but certainly the 70th week and into eternity. The first three chapters of Revelation are before the seals are opened showing the end times events - of Jesus telling the churches how to act.

The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. If they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, then the Lamb must be present. Some of the same characters hiding are also found in chapter 19. "captains" "mighty men", etc.

Essentianly yes, very near Jesus's Second Coming (His coming on the clouds of heaven). What it is describing is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven that appears - Jesus before the throne of God about to execute judgment in vengeance on behalf of them who have been slain. The sign right before Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven.

So the beast, Satan, and the false prophet convince the kings of the earth to try and make war on Jesus - in Revelation 16. And they gather at Armageddon.

Bab2, it is going to take some time for the kings of the earth to take council and to assemble there armies into place, once they see the threat of Jesus about to destroy them - several weeks. How can the rapture take place as Jesus is coming - coming in the clouds of heaven - his actual descent to earth, after they have spent several weeks assembling at Armagedddon, and still be like a thief in the night?

 

[Douggg]

The biggest advocate of the post-trib rapture in the whole world admits the rapture happens in Revelation 7 citing Christians will suddenly appear in heaven before the throne of God said Pastor Steven L. Anderson.

So much for the argument of a post-trib rapture. This is like Hal Lindsey saying Christians don't go to heaven in a rapture but does a U-turn in the clouds before coming back down to earth after the tribulation. Things aren't going so well when a huge post-tribber admits Christians do go to heaven in the rapture.

Well, Stephen makes a huge misleading statement by saying "after this", (in verse 9) - implying the after this refers back to the sixth seal. But actually the "after this" is after John sees the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8, before any of the Judgements of God begin.

The ones John sees in Revelation 7:9-17, after seeing the sealing of the 144,000 before the Judgments of God begin, are them martyred during the course of the Great Tribulation (verse 14), which coincides with the Judgements of God on the world which will be following the beast and martyring them who don't worship the beast.

So Revelation 7 cannot be used to prove either the post-trib view or the pre-trib (pre-70th week) view. There is no-one raptured in any of those verses.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, there are those angels who kept not their first estate and took human woman as wives. But that is a certain group of wicked angels, not all of them

Are you saying there are wicked angels now in heaven in the presence of God and Christ?

Or are there good angels now in heaven who will turn bad in the future and be cast out?

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[Douggg]

Are you saying there are wicked angels now in heaven in the presence of God and Christ?

Or are there good angels now in heaven who will turn bad in the future and be cast out?

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no, not at all. There are wicked angels and Satan in the second heaven and first heaven. The second heaven being the cosmos and the first heaven being our atmosphere. And of course, Satan and the wicked angels are roaming this earth. But right now they are not restricted to earth.

In Revelation 12, after the two witnesses are killed, day 1260, by the beast, as the woman is given an opportunity to flee into the wilderness where she will be protected, after the AOD is setup (on day 2520-1335 = 1185 ); and after the two witnesses ascend to heaven 3 1/2 days later, day 1263.5, there is the war in the heaven (the second heaven). Which Satan and his angels are cast down restricted to earth, as God's prosecution of Satan begins, and the taking away of Satan influence on the world.

day 1 confirming of the covenant
day 1185 the AOD image of the beast setup
day 1185 thru day 1260, the woman flees into the wilderness
day 1260 the beast kills the two witnesses
day 1263.5 the two witnesses rise and ascend to heaven
The 7th trumpet sounds.
There is the war in heaven (the second heaven) and Satan and his angels cast down, as the process begins of the kingdoms of this world becoming the Kingdom of God and his Christ.

It says that Satan and his angels - their home (the second heaven, the cosmos) will be found there no more (its removal forthcoming right at the last of the 70th week). Which we see in the sixth seal of that the cosmos will be removed.

In Revelation 12:10, when it says now salvation has come, it is talking primarily about the Jews. Keep in mind Chapter 12 is about the 70th week relevant to Israel. When their thought to be messiah betrays them, and the AOD setup to be worshiped on day 1185, their eyes will be opened to the folly of having rejected Jesus and embracing the Antichrist in error - and they turn to Jesus at that time.

As well as the process of the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom here on earth beginning with Satan and his angels being cast down, restricted to earth - figuratively, their dominion, Babylon is fallen is fallen.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Who is the them? The them are the Jews (Israel) who for that period embraced the Antichrist as their messiah; but have turned to Jesus, and salvation. Satan is going to be accusing them night and day for the time they think the Antichrist is their messiah. But that is all going to change when the man of sin is revealed.

Once Satan is cast down to earth he knows his time is short, because in Ezekiel 28 it says what God is going to do to Satan - including casting him down to earth, and eventually exposing him for everyone to see - there on the temple mount when Jesus returns to the mount of Olives.... as God brings a fire
to the Abomination of Desolation statue image that will come alive - by Satan incarnating it, demanding everyone to worship the image, actually him. God will bring that image to ashes in the sight of everyone on the day Jesus returns and stands on the Mt. of Olives..

These are great verses that God is not immune to the sufferings of man because of Satan. God is going to destroy Satan, in His vengeance .

Ezekiel 28:
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[BABerean2]

There are wicked angels and Satan in the second heaven and first heaven. The second heaven being the cosmos and the first heaven being our atmosphere. And of course, Satan and the wicked angels are roaming this earth. But right now they are not restricted to earth.

In Revelation 12, after the two witnesses are killed, day 1260, by the beast, as the woman is given an opportunity to flee into the wilderness where she will be protected, after the AOD is setup (on day 2520-1335 = 1185 ); and after the two witnesses ascend to heaven 3 1/2 days later, day 1263.5, there is the war in the heaven (the second heaven). Which Satan and his angels are cast down restricted to earth, as God's prosecution of Satan begins, and the taking away of Satan influence on the world.

There is just one little problem with the story above.
In order to make it work, you have to ignore the birth and death of Christ in the passage, which shows it to be a past event.

Rev 12:1　 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.　
Rev 12:2　 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.　
Rev 12:3　 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.　
Rev 12:4　 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.　
Rev 12:5　 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.　

(Psa 2:6　 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."　
Psa 2:7　 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.　

Psa 2:8　 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.　

Psa 2:9　 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' ")　


Rev 12:6　 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.　

(Mat 2:13　 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him."　

Mat 2:14　 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt,　

Mat 2:15　 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.")　

...........................................................................................

The passage above is a review of Church history including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, who is Christ.
Christ does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of iron. He destroys it, as revealed by Psalm 2.

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[keras]

So Revelation 7 cannot be used to prove either the post-trib view or the pre-trib (pre-70th week) view. There is no-one raptured in any of those verses.

Well, you got that right Douggg!
But the people in Revelation 7:1-14 are not dead or in heaven, either. They are all of God's people gathered into all of the holy Land soon after the great ordeal, [mega thiplis of Rev 7:14] of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, but especially directed at the Middle east, virtually depopulating that entire region. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18 +
Jesus will be revealed to them, 2 Thess 1:10, standing on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1, as he selects the 144,000, who will go out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to proclaim His coming Kingdom.

I do not have the time or inclination to reply and refute all the errors that people make in their misunderstanding of the prophesies. Most often, I note, my posts are ignored and I see that as an inability to prove the teachings that people seem to be unable to let go of. Isaiah 29:9-12 does say that if people confuse themselves with non-scriptural theories and ideas, then the Lord will lock them into those beliefs, to their ultimate disgrace and perhaps; loss of reward.

 

[Douggg]

There is just one little problem with the story above.
In order to make it work, you have to ignore the birth and death of Christ in the passage, which shows it to be a past event.

Revelation 12:1-5 are introductory historic verses, to identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as Israel. Without those, there is not way of knowing for certain the woman is Israel.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I do not know how you came up with the idea that Pastor Steven Anderson is "The biggest advocate of the post-trib rapture in the whole world".

Pastor Carl Gallups is probably better known and is closer to an understanding of the text.

The most famous prophecy author during my lifetime said that the post-trib view is the oldest.
His words are found below.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998
............................................................................
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

I am just laughing profusely at how you you managed to put your foot in your mouth from watching the video you linked and the comments you wrote. Do you understand what Carl Callups said in the video? The video is less than 8 minutes long and 3 times in the video Carl said God raptures the church out of the way before He pours out His wrath. Do you not understand Carl is telling you there's no post-trib rapture.

Do you understand Carl refuted the post-trib rapture 3 times in the video. Again Carl said God raptures the church out and than pours out His wrath. How do you not understand Carl is telling you there's no post-trib rapture.

You should change your stance on the rapture to pan-trib because nothing you do is panning out the way you want.

And he's not post-trib either. A person who believes the church getting raptured just before God pours out His wrath holds a pre-wrath rapture view. You can't even find a video from a post-tribber to refute anything.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

The ones John sees in Revelation 7:9-17, after seeing the sealing of the 144,000 before the Judgments of God begin, are them martyred during the course of the Great Tribulation (verse 14), which coincides with the Judgements of God on the world which will be following the beast and martyring them who don't worship the beast.

So Revelation 7 cannot be used to prove either the post-trib view or the pre-trib (pre-70th week) view. There is no-one raptured in any of those verses.

I don't know about that Douggg for several reasons. The ones that are martyred during the tribulation are found in Revelation 20:4 and are not a great multitude that no one can count. If any martyred gets resurrected after the tribulation, they would not appear in heaven with Jesus because Jesus is not in heaven after the tribulation and the great multitude is seen in heaven with Jesus.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 appears in heaven the time God seals the 144,000. It's illogical God would seal them for their protection after having already gone through the tribulation so Revelation 7 would logically happen before the tribulation begins.

In Revelation 7:2-3, the angel with the seal said not to harm the earth yet till after the 144,000 are sealed. This shows the tribulation was about to commence but was delayed. This can't be an event that happens after the tribulation.

In revelation 7:17, Jesus is in the midst of the great multitude when they are in heaven. Jesus is not in heaven after the tribulation. This can't be an event that happens after the tribulation either.

In Revelation 8:1-2, the 7 angels were not given 7 trumpets till after the 7th seal was opened. This can't be post-trib either unless the 7 trumpets and 7 vials happens after the tribulation.

Maybe you don't see the distinction but I can see Revelation 7 happening pre-trib and not happening after the tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

I don't know about that Douggg for several reasons. The ones that are martyred during the tribulation are found in Revelation 20:4 and are not a great multitude that no one can count.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 appears in heaven the time God seals the 144,000. It's illogical God would seal them for their protection after having already gone through the tribulation so Revelation 7 would logically happen before the tribulation begins.

I would not say that the 144,000 are sealed at the time of the great multitude - but before it, because it says in Revelation 7:3 the sealing is done before any hurt is done to the earth. Which would place the sealing before any of the judgments of God take place.

The great multitude are those coming out of the great tribulation 7:14. So that group cannot be pre-trib. It is not post-trib either, but as the great tribulation is taking place.

Revelation chapters 7-9 is about the second half of the seventieth week.

In Revelation 7:2-3, the angel with the seal said not to harm the earth yet till after the 144,000 are sealed. This shows the tribulation was about to commence but was delayed. This can't be an event that happens after the tribulation.

The sealing of the 144,000 of Israel is before any of the judgments take place during the great tribulation. The 144,000 are a defined number, and of the tribes of Israel; while the great multitude is from every tribe, nation, peoples, tongues.

The 144,000 are addressed separately from the great multitude in Revelation 14.

In revelation 7:17, Jesus is in the midst of the great multitude when they are in heaven. Jesus is not in heaven after the tribulation. This can't be an event that happens after the tribulation either.

I would not say after, but during the time of the great tribulation as it is taking place,

In Revelation 8:1-2, the 7 angels were not given 7 trumpets till after the 7th seal was opened. This can't be post-trib either unless the 7 trumpets and 7 vials happens after the tribulation.

The opening of 7th seal is not a timeline event, but a revealing event. The seventh seal is removed, and chapters 7-9 show what happens during the second half of the seventieth week. (see my post #19 in this thread on the structure of Revelation)

Beginning with the sealing of the 144,000 before God's judgments take place, because of the persecution and martyring started by the beast. And the great multitude building up in heaven, as the great tribulation is taking place.

Maybe you don't see the distinction but I can see Revelation 7 happening pre-trib and not happening after the tribulation.

Again, the great multitude is not after the great tribulation, but as it is going on. (btw, that doesn't exclude a pre-trib rapture possibility, just that the group John's sees are not a raptured group.)

What are you calling pre-trib? Pre-70th week? or Pre-great tribulation?

The term pre-trib is usually taken to mean pre-70th week. There is actually not a term in the bible called tribulation period or the tribulation, as you have been saying. That in itself causes confusion. In the text, it is "great tribulation".

If you use the term pre-70th week, if that that is what you mean. Or differently, if you mean pre-great tribulation. On occasion, in your posts. It would be helpful, that others know what your position actually is. (please excuse my sentence fragments )

The great tribulation begins when the AOD is setup to be worshiped, on day 1185 on the 7 year timeline, roughly in the middle of the 7 years. So a person who says pre-great tribulation, allows for the possibility of the rapture may not take place until after the 70th week begins.

Anyway the sealing of the 144,000 is not pre-70th week, but right before the judgments of God begin as a result of the beast starting to persecute and martyr people. Sometime right before the second half of the 70th week begins. Chapter 7-9 are about what happens during the second half of the 70th week. There is no-one having been raptured in chapter 7. The great multitude group John sees are there in heaven because the persecution and dying during the great tribulation, as it is taking place.

The rapture may happen pre-70th week, or it may happen after the 70th week begins. Anytime, between now and when it actually takes place.

 

[BABerean2]

I am just laughing profusely at how you you managed to put your foot in your mouth from watching the video you linked and the comments you wrote. Do you understand what Carl Callups said in the video? The video is less than 8 minutes long and 3 times in the video Carl said God raptures the church out of the way before He pours out His wrath. Do you not understand Carl is telling you there's no post-trib rapture.

Do you understand Carl refuted the post-trib rapture 3 times in the video. Again Carl said God raptures the church out and than pours out His wrath. How do you not understand Carl is telling you there's no post-trib rapture.

You should change your stance on the rapture to pan-trib because nothing you do is panning out the way you want.

And he's not post-trib either. A person who believes the church getting raptured just before God pours out His wrath holds a pre-wrath rapture view. You can't even find a video from a post-tribber to refute anything.

I am glad to provide a source of entertainment for someone who thinks the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are the same word.

It is no wonder you are confused.


Rev_1:9　 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(G2347= Greek word "thlipsis")

Rev_11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(G3709= Greek word "orge")
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[Riberra]

There is actually not a term in the bible called tribulation period or the tribulation, as you have been saying. That in itself causes confusion. In the text, it is "great tribulation".

Those that will be beheaded because they refuse to worship the Beast and refuse to take his mark during the 42 months reign of the Beast are seen standing on the sea of glass in
Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The Christians who have been martyred to death for their faith since Jesus have ascended to Heaven [Christians are even being martyred for their faith actually in Muslim Countries],have going through GREAT Tribulation =GREAT Suffering !The great multitude seen in Heaven before the throne of God after the sealing of the 144,000 Revelation 7 are those who were martyred to death for their faith in Jesus/but obviously they form a different group of martyrs that those that will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 15:2.

 

[BABerean2]

Looks like "It's not finished." I'm sure you'll make up something new.

Joh 19:30　 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.　

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[keras]

The Christians who have been martyred to death for their faith since Jesus have ascended to Heaven [Christians are even being martyred for their faith actually in Muslim Countries],have going through GREAT Tribulation =GREAT Suffering !The great multitude seen in Heaven before the throne of God after the sealing of the 144,000 Revelation 7 are those who were martyred to death for their faith in Jesus/but obviously they form a different group of martyrs that those that will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 15:2.

There is only one group of martyrs. From Stephen until Jesus Returns, their souls are kept under the heavenly Altar and Jesus will bring them with Him and resurrect them then. Rev 21:4
The vast multitude of people from every race, nation and language, are gathered into all of the Holy Land, NOT heaven. Proved by the earthly scene set in Revelation 7:1-3 Heaven isn't mentioned anywhere in Rev 7.

The great tribulation referred to in Revelation 7:14, is obviously the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18 + +

 

[Riberra]

There is only one group of martyrs. From Stephen until Jesus Returns, their souls are kept under the heavenly Altar and Jesus will bring them with Him and resurrect them then. Rev 21:4
The vast multitude of people from every race, nation and language, are gathered into all of the Holy Land, NOT heaven. Proved by the earthly scene set in Revelation 7:1-3 Heaven i]
sn't mentioned anywhere in Rev 7.

Revelation 6:9-11 =Early Christians Martyrs -like Stephen and the apostles to whom it was said to rest utill
their fellow servants and brethren who shall be killed as they were SHOULD BE FULFILLED .

Revelation 7:9-17 :The FULFILLMENT ....A great multitude of martyrs that nobody is able to count coming out of GREAT Tribulation=they were martyred to death/...is seen before the Throne of God in Heaven,God will begin the 7 trumpet calamities upon one third of the Earth ...for starter.

And sometimes later
God will begin to avenge the Blood of all the martyrs which will include those beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast Revelation 15:2 when the 7 Vials of the WRATH OF GOD WILL BE POURED OUT --Revelation 16

The great tribulation referred to in Revelation 7:14, is obviously the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18 + +

The destructive great worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal Revelation 6:12-13 and the scary signs in the sky will obviously be a marking event in humans affairs ...thus the urgency to seal the 144,000 before the opening of the 7 Th seal Revelation 8 ,note that the sealing of the 144,000 is still part of the 6 TH SEAL...

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I would not say that the 144,000 are sealed at the time of the great multitude - but before it, because it says in Revelation 7:3 the sealing is done before any hurt is done to the earth. Which would place the sealing before any of the judgments of God take place.

That's what I told you in post 232 Douggg. This is an indication it's before the tribulation had begun as nothing on earth has yet to be harmed. It's logical to believe the 144,000 are sealed before Daniel's 70th week begins, not during and not after, and since the great multitude are seen in heaven at the time the 144,000 are sealed on earth "and before the earth is harmed," it could only mean all this is pre-trib.

The great multitude are those coming out of the great tribulation 7:14. So that group cannot be pre-trib. It is not post-trib either, but as the great tribulation is taking place.

The term great tribulation is not used in the bible to indicate the second half of the tribulation. If you study the new testament entirely, you will see nowhere in the bible is there a specific word addressing only the second half of the tribulation. This is a man made mistake, an error interpretation. It probably originated from someone thinking Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21 using the words "great tribulation" after the AoD had taken place in Matthew 24:15. If you try to understand what He said, He's not calling it the great tribulation, He's telling us it's a period of great tribulation, unlike any time in the past.

If you check, you'll see throughout the new testament, the bible uses the word wrath (God's wrath or thy wrath has come) and to a smaller degree great tribulation as found in Revelation 7:14 synonymously for Daniel's 70th week, the entire length of the tribulation as in 7 years, not half. It's a human error we've been taught and raised to think.

If it's coming clear yet, look at it this way. The tribulation for the gentile is not 3.5 years, for the world the tribulation is 7 years. You don't find this anywhere in the new testament. So why would anyone think breaks down the tribulation into 3.5 years for the gentile?

It's only in the old testament of the bible the tribulation is broken into halves, the second half is referred to Jacob's Trouble (3.5 years). But the tribulation in length is 7 years (Daniel's 70th week). Half of it is only for Israel because their time of tribulation begins at the AoD and lasting the entire second half of the tribulation.
This probably goes back to Matthew 24:21 again after Jesus used the term great tribulation following His warning to the Jews in Israel to flee the AoD in Matthew 24:15. Now people think the words great tribulation only refers to the second half after the AoD but if you read it carefully, Jesus was addressing only the Jews who are living in Israel during the end times who's time of tribulation is only 3.5 years. Jesus was not telling anyone the second half of the tribulation is called the great tribulation.

Now look at this also. The word great tribulation is only mentioned 3 times found in the new testament: Matthew 24:21, Revelation 2:22, Revelation 7:14. Read it carefully and all the surrounding verses, there's nothing in the word great tribulation pointing to a 3.5 year period. Under scrutiny, you can see the author is writing about Daniel's 70th week, not the second half of the week.

So again, in the testament the words wrath, tribulation and great tribulation in the bible all means the same thing, the final 70th week, 7 years in length.

A distinction between tribulation and great tribulation is man-made to separate the 7 years into halves. The bible doesn't do that in the new testament as there's no 3.5 year tribulation for the gentile world, it's only for Israel which the bible calls Jacob's Trouble.

Revelation chapters 7-9 is about the second half of the seventieth week.

This is wrong Douggg.

The opening of 7th seal is not a timeline event, but a revealing event. The seventh seal is removed, and chapters 7-9 show what happens during the second half of the seventieth week. (see my post #19 in this thread on the structure of Revelation)

This is wrong Douggg. I took your advice and read post 19.

This was what you wrote in post 19.

stickie 1 - Chapters 1-3 Jesus tells the churches how to behave.

sitckie 2 - Chapters 4-5 John is caught up to heaven to be shown the end times

stickie 3 - Chapter 6 is an overview of the 70th week of Daniel 9, start to finish.

stickie 4 - Chapters 7-9 is what takes place during the second half of the 70th week.

sitckie 5 - Chapters 10-11 is the 70th week according to the little book John eats

stickie 6 - Chapter 12 is the 70th week relevant to Israel.

stickie 7 - Chapters 13-14 is the second half of the 70th week, the great tribulation.

stickie 8 - Chapters 15-16 is the second half of the 70th week, God's vials of wrath.

stickie 9 - Chapters 17-18 is about Mystery Babylon, the beast, the seven kings and ten kings

stickie 10 - Chapter 19 is the glorious return of Jesus to complete the 70th week.

stickie 11 - Chapter 20 is the 1000 year rule of Jesus upon this earth, and the final curtain for Satan.

stickie 12 - Chapters 21-22 is about eternity, our place in the new heaven and new earth

Sorry Douggg but this I wrong. You left out the first half of the tribulation and clumped everything that happens during the first half into the second half. In other words, your version of the tribulation is only 3.5 years.

This is an example of what I was writing about about. A 3.5 year time of tribulation is only for Israel, for the world it's a whole 7 years. This is why you don't see a pre-trib rapture because your version of the tribulation begins in the middle of the tribulation. There's no way anyone can see a pre-trib rapture if they're only shown the second half.

It's like taking someone to a baseball game and leave the game after the 5th inning. Then ask him how many innings are in a baseball game. Of course he'll say 5 and never know it's 9.

If you eliminate the first half of the tribulation you pretty much eliminated any possibility of a pre-trib rapture. At least you got the post-trib rapture correct, it's not there.

What are you calling pre-trib? Pre-70th week? or Pre-great tribulation?

Pre-trib means before or at the beginning of the 70th week. Or even a very short period after the 70th week had begun. The tribulation for Noah didn't come till a week after he and his family went into the ark.

As for Pre-great tribulation, that a man made interpretation of the bible to mean the second 3.5 years, and an error. The bible doesn't do that, not in the new or the old testament. The world endures a time of tribulation for 7 years. Israel's tribulation is only 3.5 years during the second half of the 7 years. During the first half of the 7 years, Israel is greatly blessed living in safety and prosperity while the world falls apart. It's kinda silly that other people would think well since Israel's tribulation is the second half, that would mean the second half is the real tribulation for the world.

 

[Douggg]

The term great tribulation is not used in the bible to indicate the second half of the tribulation. If you study the new testament entirely, you will see nowhere in the bible is there a specific word addressing only the second half of the tribulation. This is a man made mistake, an error interpretation. It probably originated from someone thinking Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:21 using the words "great tribulation" after the AoD had taken place in Matthew 24:15. If you try to understand what He said, He's not calling it the great tribulation, He's telling us it's a period of great tribulation, unlike any time in the past.

In the KJV, the words "great tribulation" are in Revelation 7:14.

If you try to understand what He said, He's not calling it the great tribulation, He's telling us it's a period of great tribulation, unlike any time in the past.

I don't see any difference. It is takes place over a period time. Specifically 1335 days long.

 

[keras]

Revelation 7:9-17 :The FULFILLMENT ....A great multitude of martyrs that nobody is able to count coming out of GREAT Tribulation=they were martyred to death/...is seen before the Throne of God in Heaven,God will begin the 7 trumpet calamities upon one third of the Earth ...for starter.

Nowhere does Rev 7 say that either the 144,000 or the Vast Multitude of people from every nation and language, are martyrs. The martyrs souls are brought back when Jesus Returns.
They are just living people who have survived the terrible Sixth Seal DoL event. They have survived because they took heed of what we are plainly told to do on that Day of worldwide disaster:
1/ Stand firm in our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 3:10
2/ Call upon the Name of the Lord, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
3/ Take shelter, Isaiah 26:20-21, Jeremiah 6:25

The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation do not commence until the Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4 Which cannot happen for at least 7+ years after the Sixth Seal.

 

[Douggg]

Now look at this also. The word great tribulation is only mentioned 3 times found in the new testament: Matthew 24:21, Revelation 2:22, Revelation 7:14. Read it carefully and all the surrounding verses, there's nothing in the word great tribulation pointing to a 3.5 year period. Under scrutiny, you can see the author is writing about Daniel's 70th week, not the second half of the week.

Actually, I have not been using the term 3 1/2 years or 3.5 years. Neither is in the bible. When I write "second half", I am not implying "exactly" 3 1/2 years.

The great tribulation in Revelation 7:14 is not 7 years in length.

In Matthew 24:15 Jesus stated that the great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

From Daniel 12:7 the worst time in Israel's history lasts a time, times, half times. That is the second half of the seventh week.

Regarding when the AOD is setup to be worshiped, from Daniel 9:11-12, blessed is he who remains (faithful) until the 1335th day. Therefore, on a 7 year, 2520 day timeline subtract the 1335 days. On day 1185, the AOD will be setup to be worshiped. The great tribulation starts then, and the persecution and martyring that goes along with it.

 

[keras]

In the KJV, the words "great tribulation" are in Revelation 7:14.

But those words; mega thiplis, simply refer to the just previous event, the terrible worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal.
They cannot refer to the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, as the scroll is not yet unrolled until after the Seventh Seal time gap.