Now you're getting really good showing everyone how delusional you really are. Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.
I never said that Christ returned in 70 AD. He will return sometime in the future only one time at His Second Coming.
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Now you're getting really good showing everyone how delusional you really are. Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.
OK, let's get specific. Cite one of the "opinions" you consider to be unsourced.
According to what authority do you call them reformers or non-pre-tribbers. What does that have to do with the text that was published in their Bible?
Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.
By their own declarations of the papacy as antichrist. With the true church thus suffering under antichrist, there was no pretrib rapture.
Do you wish me to cite some of their declarations?
It doesn't make a bit of difference what anyone said except for the what was printed in their Bibles. Is that clear enough?
I never said that Christ returned in 70 AD. He will return sometime in the future only one time at His Second Coming.
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Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
NO, THIS PROPHECY WAS NOT FULFILLED IN 70 AD. WISHFUL THINKING BY A PRETERIST'S VIEW. THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST MEANING NONE OF IT CAN BE FULFILLED WITHOUT JESUS' RETURN AT THE END. HE NEVER RETURNED IN 70 AD, SO TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE GUTTER.
Here's my reply.......
More evidence you're just making things up as you go along.
"Rom_11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
(All of Israel that is Israel from Romans 9:6 will be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.)"
This then ignores all the context, with Paul grieving for Israel, which is made meaningless for that interpretation. Also not dealt with is the scripture that Yahweh's love for Israel is everlasting. In its context, unending love is not really meaningful if it is to be removed with its promises from Yahweh from that group and given to another group with that group given its name, which is understood in your interpretation but is not though the reality. Spiritual Israel does not mean that every time the name Israel will be used then will be for that meaning.
Mat 21:37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Mat 21:38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Mat 21:39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
(The nation that it is given to is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.)
1Pe 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"
1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Those who have rejected the Son cannot be in a right relationship with His Father.
God is not now a respecter of persons based on a sample of DNA.
A relationship to God is based on a person accepting "the chief cornerstone".
Christ's parable was referring to the religious leaders, not all the people of Israel.
And Peter was not speaking of the people of Israel who are to be replaced, but of those who are disobedient, and reject Christ.
It is your interpretation that Israel was to be replaced and the promises to the people of Israel were to go to others replacing them. But the passage of Jeremiah 31:3 which I mention and is still not considered in responses that just go to other verses excludes that interpretation.
Those promises are not about relationship with Yahweh that excludes anyone of other genetic makeup. The promises have what is said of descendants who are heirs of the covenant, and gentiles are grafted in with those believers of Israel with the new covenant. But with what Paul who grieved for the people of Israel said, the time will for the remnant from them, that all of Israel will be saved. It is just as the original Christian believers were Jewish. Paul would make no sense to speak of his grief for people of Israel who still were disbelieving, and then speak of the saved elect with calling them Israel, even with no comment that he was using the name of Israel in that sense anywhere in that context, which would give no new information useful in that context. Paul was not doing that.
I too believe believers will be removed before the great tribulations.
What does the text say?
Here it is straight from the NKJV.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
Do you think Luke was "making things up"?
What you're telling us is Luke 21:24 was fulfilled in 70AD and Jesus returns in Luke 21:25. That's a sudden 2000 year gap nowhere mentioned in Luke 21.
BABerean2 said:It is not my interpretation. It is Peter's found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.
In Matthew chapter 21 Christ tells the Pharisees the kingdom will be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it will be given to another nation.
In 1 Peter 2:4-10, Peter interprets the passage for us by referring to those who accept the "chief cornerstone" and he refers to them as "a holy nation".
All of the Old Testament promises based on genealogy are found fulfilled in the first verse in the New Testament, in Matthew 1:1. Christ is the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. This understanding is confirmed by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9, and Paul in Galatians 3:16, and Christ in John 8, and Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:4, and 1 John 2:22-23.
God is not now a respecter of persons, based on DNA.
The confusion comes from the fact that we find two Israels in Romans 9:6-8.
There is an Israel of the Flesh and an Israel of the Promise. This is clearly revealed in Romans 9:8.
Lumping both groups together into one group simply called "Israel" will never give the correct interpretation.
Paul's comment in Romans 11:26 must be viewed through his previous comments in Romans 9:6-8.
He had already said that not all of Israel of the Flesh was Israel of the Promise.
He also quoted the Old Testament at the end of the chapter saying that even though the number of Israelites would be "as the sand of the sea" only "a remnant" would be saved. The word "remnant" can never mean "all"
Throughout Romans 11 Paul makes it clear that those broken off of the Olive Tree could be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled for all race of people at Calvary.
Some have replaced the word "so", which is an adverb of manner in Romans 11:26, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing. I have heard John Hagee make this change on television.
I have heard Dr. David Jeremiah leave out the word "so" during a television program. Both men changed the text to make their doctrine work. The word "so" is describing how those broken off of the tree can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. There is no Plan B. Throughout Romans 11 Paul describes two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not. He starts with the Israelites who worshipped Baal and the 7,000 who would not. He said there was also a "remnant" during his time. He ends the passage in the same way with two groups of "they". There is "they" who have rejected the Gospel and have become the enemies of God, just like the Baal worshippers and there is another group of "they" who have accepted the Messiah and have become the election. All of Israel is not "partially blinded". Instead, part of Israel is blinded and part of Israel is not blinded.
I have never seen an explanation of Revelation 12:11 which proves that those under the Blood of the Lamb are not members of the New Covenant Church. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.
John describes the 144,000 as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same term to describe Christians.
The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.
The Early Church Fathers believed that our Brothers and Sisters would have to face the persecution of the tribulation period, because they understood that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
And the prophecy, for all Israel that remains still, to be saved, will be with Jews, people of Israel, this is in context of what Paul said he wanted so badly. There is the passage there for that, which says "all", and not "remnant" as you say. And there are prophecies for Israel yet to have fulfillment that will have it through them. Promises to people of Israel are not taken away and given to another. They are not to "Spiritual Israel" spoken of in one place in the new testament, and promises to Israel are not seen from lumping people of Israel to such "Spiritual Israel", which has its own promises. Yahweh means that which was said, inclusive of what was for Israel, as it was understood.
BABerean2 said:If the word "all" in Romans 11:26 means every Jew, then Paul must have been a schizophrenic.
In Romans 9:6-8 Paul made it clear that all Israel is not Israel.
He said it is about the promise, instead of the flesh.
In Romans 11:1-5 Paul talks about two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
One was faithful and one was not.
He also said there was a faithful "remnant" during his time.
So, did Paul change his mind in Romans 11, or was he talking about "all" of the remnant?
If we want modern Jews to be saved, we need to share the Gospel of the New Covenant with them now, instead of waiting on a future period of time.
No, there is nothing to be seen as schizophrenic from this. Using the introduction of spiritual Israel at the beginning portion of chapter 9 is not the surrounding context where Paul wrote that yet all Israel would be saved, in chapter 11. If all Israel were to mean only spiritual Israel, this that would then be a confusing verse should never have been written, maybe you would have been fine if it weren't there. We don't need to be told that all the saved will be saved, this useless message would be there if it meant just spiritual Israel. But the real context shows that Paul's concern is for all the remaining Israel, that are not converts to Christ yet. His prophetic statement ties to old testament prophecies where the remnant of Israel, with those not saying other people who will be joined and become Israel, will ultimately be saved. They will face crisis which will destroy them, that is beyond their ability to save themselves, and they will recognize Christ for who he is, from the miraculous testimony (this happens after the two witnesses with their miracles, and the 144000), and call on him, and they will then be saved. Of course, as this is saying, it is with sharing the gospel of Christ, as we can and should do now, for it does not need to wait when Jews can be getting saved, in Christ, now, as in some cases some are.
The "first resurrection" in John chapter 5 is the process of being spiritually passed from death to life upon coming to faith in Christ. It is found in John 5:24. The second resurrection in John 5 is of the body and is found in John 5:28-30. This bodily resurrection occurs at 2 Peter chapter 3, and is also found in Revelation 11:18. Both are describing the Second Coming of Christ described in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, which occurs on the "day of the Lord", when He comes "as a thief". It is also found in Revelation 16:15-16.