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Featured Saint Peter says: Second Advent = Second Resurrection - All Other Theories Debunked

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by precepts, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    From catechism 1471:
    "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
    "An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."

    If indulgences have never been approved, what is their definition doing in the catechism?

    Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    We are saved through faith unto good works, not by them.
  2. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter


    You believe that Jesus' quotes to Satan (taken from the OT) "prove" your Sola Scriptura doctrine. None of these quotes are proof for your belief!

    All traditions are not evil. The Festival of Lights/Hanukkah/Feast of Dedication was a good tradition and Jesus celebrated this man-made tradition while He was on earth. John 10:22-27

    However, the Pharisees were using their own man-made tradition to specifically excuse themselves from the obligation of caring for their own parents who needed assistance. Their tradition actually violated one of the Ten Commandments (honor their fathers and mothers) and that is why Jesus was rebuking them.

    The Pharisees also followed their own tradition to tithe "mint and dill and cummin". This was a good tradition. However, they neglected to practice judgment and mercy and fidelity and Jesus rebuked them for neglecting these more important things. He also stated that they should not neglect to follow their own tradition to tithe the mint and dill and cummun.

    Matthew 23:23
    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the others. nabre

    I assume you believe that the NT is the inspired Word of God. You are correct. But, the NT is not the only inspired Word of God.
    The oral tradition of Jesus' Church's leaders/apostles is first and foremost the inspired Word of God. These men (leaders of Christ's Church) taught in person and then later they wrote the NT to supplement their oral teaching/preaching. The Church came first, the NT Scriptures came second. The Scriptures are not more important than Jesus' Church's leaders' teaching. Jesus gave Peter alone the keys of the kingdom (chief stewardship authority) and He gave Peter and also the other apostles the authority to speak and rule His Church in His name. Matthew 16:15-20, Matthew 18:15-20, Matthew 28:18-20

    All the things that Jesus taught are not in the NT Bible. Some important teachings were never intended to be put in a Book called the NT Bible. However these oral teachings are as important as the teachings which are in the NT Bible.


    Matthew 4:4
    He said in reply, “It is written:
    ‘One does not live by bread alone,
    but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’” nabre

    John 21:25
    There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. nabre

    2 Corinthians 10:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, ​

    Jesus gave His Church's leaders His authority to speak in His name and to make laws/rules/decisions in His name. Matthew 16:15-20, Matthew 18:15-20
    We are commanded to listen to them and obey them.


    Luke 10:16
    Whoever listens to you (Church leaders) listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” niv
    Hebrews 13:7-17
    Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching. It is good to have our hearts strengthened by grace and not by foods, which do not benefit those who live by them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 The bodies of the animals whose blood the high priest brings into the sanctuary as a sin offering are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the gate, to consecrate the people by his own blood. 13 Let us then go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach that he bore. 14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the one that is to come. 15 Through him [then] let us continually offer God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have; God is pleased by sacrifices of that kind. 17 Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you. nab

    I strive to obey the leaders of Jesus' Church to the best of my ability. He requires this of me.

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Like the teaching that says the mother of Christ was without sin.
    Can you show me this in scripture?

    Like the teaching that says Christ is not the only mediator between man and God.
    Can you show me this in scripture?

    Like the teaching that says we should bow down to a man, when Peter told Cornelius not to bow down to him.
    Can you show me this in scripture?

    Like the teaching that has believers bowing down to images.
    Can you show me this in scripture?

    Like the teaching which says priests must not marry, even though Peter had a wife.
    Can you show me this in scripture?

    Like the teaching that says the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, when Paul told us not to judge others in Sabbath keeping in Colossians 2:16-17.
    And the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
    Christ is the Sabbath in the New Covenant.

    And the teaching which says babies get into the New Covenant through sprinkling, instead of the baptism of the Holy Spirit upon faith in Christ as found in John 5:24 and John chapter 3.

    You make the Word of God of none effect by your man-made traditions.

    Former Roman Catholic Priest:

  4. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

    Please reread my answer. I said, "Selling indulgences has never been approved by the Catholic Church's magisterium."

    The magisterium of the Catholic Church does grant indulgences. Jesus Christ gave His Church's leaders the power to make binding decisions for His Church. Matthew 16:15-19, Matthew 18:15-19

    It is Jesus Christ who saves us, but He requires us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do if we want to be approved worthy to enter into eternal life after we die.

    Matthew 10:34-38
    Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. rsv

    Matthew 7:21
    Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. rsv

    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. rsv​

    John 5:22
    The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, rsv

    Faith and baptism plus good works until death is what makes a person worthy to inherit eternal life. Mark 16:16, John 5:28-30

    Matthew 25:31-46
    When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv​
  5. Tom 1

    Tom 1 Optimistic sceptic Supporter

    I have amusing cap related anecdote of that would lighten things up
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    You are passed from death to life upon faith in Christ, based on John 5:24.

    Works is the fruit of salvation.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If you can be kept from entering eternal life, then you have not been saved.

  7. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

    Why do you think this must be explained in Scripture? This dogma does not have to be explained to your satisfaction in the Scriptures in order to be true. For example, we know that the Holy Trinity is comprised of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and yet the term Holy Trinity is not explained in the Bible. It does not have to be. Christ gave His Church leaders the authority to teach in His name. We are commanded to listen to them so they can explain to us how to best understand and live the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Luke 10:16, Hebrews 13:17

    Re: Mary's sinlessness

    Adam was created without sin, but he chose to sin and therefore all mankind inherited his sin. He could not pass down his former sinlessness to his descendants because he cannot pass down what he no longer possesses. In order for the Holy Spirit to impregnate Mary, she had to be sinless. Jesus could not have been conceived as a sinless human being unless His mother was also sinless. Her genes had to be perfect (not tainted by sin) in order for His genes to be perfect.

    Hebrews 4:15
    For we do not have a high priest (JESUS) who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin. nabre​

    Jesus Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man because He is BOTH God and man and therefore God will accept His mediation between God and mankind. Adam's sin caused us to lose fellowship with God. Jesus Christ's perfect sacrifice makes it possible for every person to have fellowship with God.

    The Scripture does not state that Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man.
    1 Timothy 2:5, Job 33:22-24

    We are all commanded to intercede to God for others.

    1 Timothy 2:1-6
    First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv​

    The Bible does not state that we should not bow down to a man as a sign of respect. Cornelius was confused and so he fell down at Peter's feet in worship of him. The worship of a man is forbidden. Only God is to be worshiped.

    Acts 10:25
    When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. rsv​

    Genesis 43:26
    When Joseph came home, they brought into the house to him the present which they had with them, and bowed down to him to the ground. rsv​

    Genesis 23:12
    Then Abraham bowed down before the people of the land. rsv​

    Catholics do not bow down to images. We are bowing down to the people who are depicted by the images as a sign of respect. We do not worship images or the people they represent. We only worship God.

    Jesus had to choose His apostles from the available men. Some were married and some were not. However, this is what Jesus taught His apostles about serving God:

    Matthew 19:12
    For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.” rsv​

    Paul also:
    1 Corinthians 7:8-9
    To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion. rsv​

    Some Rites of the Catholic Church do allow married priests, but the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church requires its priests to be unmarried. This is a discipline of the Latin Rite and so it can be changed, but I doubt that it will be changed. 1 Corinthians 7:32-35

    The early church leaders taught that Jesus told them to have their public worship of God on Sunday, the first day of the week, the day that He rose from the dead. We do see the evidence of this practice in the Scriptures, but there was actually no need to have this in the Scriptures. Every Christian alive at that point in time knew exactly where and when to meet together to worship.

    Some Christian Jews did continue to keep the Sabbath until they died or until the temple was destroyed, but these Christian Jews still gathered together to worship God on the first day of the week (Sunday) as commanded by Jesus. None of the Gentile converts to Christianity were required to keep the Sabbath of the Jews. Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant. Paul told the Colossian Gentile Christians to ignore the Christian Jews who were insisting that the Christian Gentiles keep the Jewish Sabbath.

    1 Corinthians 16:2
    On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever he can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come. nabre​

    Acts 20:7
    On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight. nabre​

    Jesus Christ is the ONE mediator of God’s New Covenant between God and man. No other person mediated this New Covenant between God and man.

    Luke 22:20
    In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. niv​

    Your own man-made tradition concerning baptism contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ Church has always taught that the Baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 is what makes us born again. This is the Baptism that washes away our sins and makes us temples of the Holy Spirit and disciples of Jesus Christ.

    Matthew 28:19-20
    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” niv​

    John 6:3-6
    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. niv​

    Acts 22:16
    And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ rsv​

    God will judge this man.

    Matthew 18:6
    “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. rsv​

    James 3:1
    Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. rsv
    It is time for me to move on. God bless you and the other people who are reading my posts. :amen: