Saint Peter says: Second Advent = Second Resurrection - All Other Theories Debunked

jgr

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the list of esteemed theologians who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Here are more than a few brothers who didn't:

Eberhard II of Salzburg, John Foxe, John Wyclif, Walter Brute, John Oldcastle, John Huss, Martin Luther, Andreas Osiander, Nicolaus Von Amsdorf, Philipp Melanchthon, John Calvin, John Knox, John Napier, Huldrych Zwingli, Heinrich Bullinger, Theodor Bibliander, Alfonsus Conradus, William Tyndale, Nicholas Ridley, John Bradford, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Thomas Cranmer, Thomas Becon, John Jewel, Edwin Sandys of Worcester, King James, Isaac Newton, Johann Bengel, John Wesley, John Cotton, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Samuel Cooper, Jonathan Edwards
 
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BABerean2

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See the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church below, together with the chronological order of end time events, and the list of esteemed theologians who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church, you think you know better than they do! I will spend no time rebuking you on the many exegetical errors you make in the views you express!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

The article did an excellent job of cobbling together different passages taken out of context in order to make John Darby's doctrine work.

Let us look at a few examples.

"Time of Jacob's Trouble" ---> Jeremiah wrote during the time that Israel was going into and was in captivity in Bablyon. The pretrib promoters rip the term out of its historical context and cast it into the future.


"Daniel 9:27" ---> The "he" in the verse can only be one of two singular noun antecedents found in the passage. It could be the Messiah or Titus, who led the Roman Legions that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The focus of the passage is the coming New Covenant Messiah. Jeremiah had already been given the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared. Are we supposed to believe that Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant, which is the covenant Christ fulfilled with His Blood? Are we supposed to believe that the "covenant with the many" in Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with the "covenant with the many" in Matthew 26:28? Once again, pretrib promoters have ripped the passage out of its historical context and have cast it into the future to make their doctrine work. They have done this by adding an antichrist not found in the passage and a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel. The scriptural reference in my NKJV Bible beside of Daniel 9:27 is Matthew 26:28.

The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America. It reveals the understanding of Bible scholars at that time regarding Daniel 9:27.
.....................................................................................................
From the 1599 Geneva Bible
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................................



"esteemed theologians who believe in the pretrib rapture of the Church" ---> You may have heard of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, known by many as the "Prince of Preachers". Spurgeon lived at the time Darby's doctrine was being promoted and spoke out strongly against Darby and his doctrine. See the links below the see the origin of Darby's doctrine as well as how author Grant Jeffrey was willing to cut and paste in order to try and pervert the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.........................................................................................

Overview of Covenants: David H.J. Gay

 
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FredVB

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FredVB said:
The new covenant was promised for the people of Israel, when there would be a remnant of their descendants. It was established through Christ when he came, and gave his life. The Christian church is not Israel, the promises are still for the remnant of the people of Israel. Christian believers who are gentile can come to Christ and have the new covenant too, with being grafted in to it with the remnant of Israel, through Christ. Yahweh's love for Israel was unending, Jeremiah 31:3. So there is to be still the time to come when all of Israel will be saved, as it was said. The church of believers consists of believers from Jews and from gentiles.

BABerean2 said:
Mat_10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat_15:24  But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Luk_1:16  And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

Luk_2:34  Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

Act_2:22  "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

Act_2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Act_10:36  The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

Rom_9:6  But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Rom_11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
(All of Israel that is Israel from Romans 9:6 will be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.)

Php_3:5  circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
(Paul was and Israelite who accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.)

............................................

The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in the passage below.

Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

All those verses were not needed as they don't do anything for making your point, you just try to overwhelm with a lot of text of verses, and it only this part that is revelant, with your interpretation of its meaning.

"Rom_11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
(All of Israel that is Israel from Romans 9:6 will be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.)"

This then ignores all the context, with Paul grieving for Israel, which is made meaningless for that interpretation. Also not dealt with is the scripture that Yahweh's love for Israel is everlasting. In its context, unending love is not really meaningful if it is to be removed with its promises from Yahweh from that group and given to another group with that group given its name, which is understood in your interpretation but is not though the reality. Spiritual Israel does not mean that every time the name Israel will be used then will be for that meaning.
 
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BABerean2

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Also not dealt with is the scripture that Yahweh's love for Israel is everlasting.

Mat 21:37  Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 
Mat 21:38  But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 
Mat 21:39  So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 
Mat 21:40  "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" 
Mat 21:41  They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." 
Mat 21:42  Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ? 
Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 
(The nation that it is given to is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.)



1Pe 2:4  Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME." 
1Pe 2:7  Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE," 
1Pe 2:8  and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 
1Pe 2:10  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


Mat 3:9  and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 


1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

 
1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 

1Jn 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 

Those who have rejected the Son cannot be in a right relationship with His Father.


God is not now a respecter of persons based on a sample of DNA.

A relationship to God is based on a person accepting "the chief cornerstone".

.
 
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Quasar92

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Here are more than a few brothers who didn't:

Eberhard II of Salzburg, John Foxe, John Wyclif, Walter Brute, John Oldcastle, John Huss, Martin Luther, Andreas Osiander, Nicolaus Von Amsdorf, Philipp Melanchthon, John Calvin, John Knox, John Napier, Huldrych Zwingli, Heinrich Bullinger, Theodor Bibliander, Alfonsus Conradus, William Tyndale, Nicholas Ridley, John Bradford, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Thomas Cranmer, Thomas Becon, John Jewel, Edwin Sandys of Worcester, King James, Isaac Newton, Johann Bengel, John Wesley, John Cotton, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Samuel Cooper, Jonathan Edwards


In the very same way it is with Jesus Christ and every person on earth who believe in Him, versus every other person on earth who do not believe in Him, that far outnumber the former. Meaningless, pointless opinion.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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The article did an excellent job of cobbling together different passages taken out of context in order to make John Darby's doctrine work.

Let us look at a few examples.

"Time of Jacob's Trouble" ---> Jeremiah wrote during the time that Israel was going into and was in captivity in Bablyon. The pretrib promoters rip the term out of its historical context and cast it into the future.


"Daniel 9:27" ---> The "he" in the verse can only be one of two singular noun antecedents found in the passage. It could be the Messiah or Titus, who led the Roman Legions that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The focus of the passage is the coming New Covenant Messiah. Jeremiah had already been given the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared. Are we supposed to believe that Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant, which is the covenant Christ fulfilled with His Blood? Are we supposed to believe that the "covenant with the many" in Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with the "covenant with the many" in Matthew 26:28? Once again, pretrib promoters have ripped the passage out of its historical context and have cast it into the future to make their doctrine work. They have done this by adding an antichrist not found in the passage and a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel. The scriptural reference in my NKJV Bible beside of Daniel 9:27 is Matthew 26:28.

The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America. It reveals the understanding of Bible scholars at that time regarding Daniel 9:27.
.....................................................................................................
From the 1599 Geneva Bible
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................................



"esteemed theologians who believe in the pretrib rapture of the Church" ---> You may have heard of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, known by many as the "Prince of Preachers". Spurgeon lived at the time Darby's doctrine was being promoted and spoke out strongly against Darby and his doctrine. See the links below the see the origin of Darby's doctrine as well as how author Grant Jeffrey was willing to cut and paste in order to try and pervert the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.........................................................................................

Overview of Covenants: David H.J. Gay



Your post is an amusing array of personal opinion thought to be an argument refuting the pre-trib rapture of the Church, claiming John Darby invented it, making liars out of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who taught it from the beginning. Topping it off by asking support for the Jew's For Jesus, when they are profound supporters of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Founder, Moishe Rosen and President, David Brikner are both on my list of esteemed theologians! Whom I supported for many years.

Here are the "cobbled together passages of Scrip0ture" from Jesus, Matthew, Lukie, John and Paul, you make liars out of by rejecting their teachings!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

Last Edited By: quasar Dec 13 16 7:30 AM. Edited 1 time.
 
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jgr

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Meaningless, pointless opinion.

No surprise, because prophetic history is anathema to dispensational futurism.

Dispensationalism’s obdurate and unconcealed disdain for, and rejection of, prophetic history originates with its founder John Nelson Darby, who once remarked “I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.” Adrift thereof, it is no surprise that numbers of his opinions, observations, and conclusions increasingly took on characteristics that can only be regarded as hallucinatory. And, as has been demonstrated innumerable times over the course of church history, it is in the soil of such an environment that the seeds of apostasy and cultism germinate and flourish. George Santayana’s epic observation, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” while secular, seems also eminently applicable to dispensationalism’s condition. And the consequent condemnation is even greater when its repetition is due not to forgetfulness, but to deliberate rejection.
 
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Your post is an amusing array of personal opinion thought to be an argument refuting the pre-trib rapture of the Church, claiming John Darby invented it, making liars out of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who taught it from the beginning. Topping it off by asking support for the Jew's For Jesus, when they are profound supporters of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Founder, Moishe Rosen and President, David Brikner are both on my list of esteemed theologians! Whom I supported for many years.

Here are the "cobbled together passages of Scrip0ture" from Jesus, Matthew, Lukie, John and Paul, you make liars out of by rejecting their teachings!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

If you think the 1599 Geneva Bible is "an amusing array of personal opinion", then you have shown your pretrib prejudice.
.............................................................
Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

..........................................................................................



Let us look at what Dr. Luke said, since you brought up His name and let us compare his version to the version found in Matthew's Gospel. (Spelling is sometimes a problem for me, as well.)

The following comes from the NKJV.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem (subtitle found in the NKJV)

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),) 
 
Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 
(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 

Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 
(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!) 

Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)




The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.) 
 

Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 


Luke's clear timeline reveals the two questions and the two answers in the Olivet Discourse.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy "Parousia"?


Dr. Luke's account clears up the confusion required to make Dispensational Futurism work.

However, I am sure the Doctors you listed will somehow try to change that.

.
 
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jgr

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Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

This was thoroughly debunked earlier.
 
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Quasar92

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This was thoroughly debunked earlier.


Debunked by who and with what? Let me see the evidence of the historic proof of the 2 Thess.2:3 translation from the Septuagint and the Vulgate debunked, together with the source of it !


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Quasar92

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No surprise, because prophetic history is anathema to dispensational futurism.

Dispensationalism’s obdurate and unconcealed disdain for, and rejection of, prophetic history originates with its founder John Nelson Darby, who once remarked “I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.” Adrift thereof, it is no surprise that numbers of his opinions, observations, and conclusions increasingly took on characteristics that can only be regarded as hallucinatory. And, as has been demonstrated innumerable times over the course of church history, it is in the soil of such an environment that the seeds of apostasy and cultism germinate and flourish. George Santayana’s epic observation, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” while secular, seems also eminently applicable to dispensationalism’s condition. And the consequent condemnation is even greater when its repetition is due not to forgetfulness, but to deliberate rejection.


The above is the epitome of meaningless opinion. Even worse, a clear case of attributing the teachings of the Son of God and His disciples, to someone else. A very dangerous practice! Your bigoted composition is thoroughly refuted in the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in Posts #446 and #447, Let me see your proof by Scripture, any of it is false, or your views are!


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jgr

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Debunked by who and with what? Let me see the evidence of the historic proof of the 2 Thess.2:3 translation from the Septuagint and the Vulgate debunked, together with the source of it !

Posts 425, 430, 431, 441, 449.

All of the seven translations you cited were produced by Reformers. None of them were pretribbers, as they all directly believed, observed, experienced, and described the true church suffering under the antichrist of the papacy.

In fact, none of the Reformers were pretribbers.
 
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jgr

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The above is the epitome of meaningless opinion. Even worse, a clear case of attributing the teachings of the Son of God and His disciples, to someone else. A very dangerous practice! Your bigoted composition is thoroughly refuted in the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in Posts #446 and #447, Let me see your proof by Scripture, any of it is false, or your views are!

Quintessential dispensational delirium.

There is no reference to the Son of God. There is no reference to his disciples. There is no reference to their teachings. There is only Darby's expression of his own disdain for prophetic history. You don't believe what he said? You must know him better than he knew himself. :laughing:
 
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Posts 425, 430, 431, 441, 449.

All of the seven translations you cited were produced by Reformers. None of them were pretribbers, as they all directly believed, observed, experienced, and described the true church suffering under the antichrist of the papacy.

In fact, none of the Reformers were pretribbers.


You have not produced your source of the opinions you offer in the above. In addition, you are contradicting the work and study of Thomas Ice, PhD, who wrote an article about this, but has recently revamped his web site and it is no longer readily available. If I can find a copy of it I will post it. Your argument holds no water, because the issue pertains to the use of both the Greek word apostasia and the Latin word, discessio. Both words have various meanings, such as that which is in use today from the KJV alteration, of apostasy, from the original word, departure, in 2 Thess.2:3.

The word departure, or to depart. was used from 325 A,D. when Jerome copied the Septuagint into the Vulgate, until the 16th century, by the first seven English churches. Until the KJV altered it in their 1611 Bible, to apostasy. Which is another meaning for apostasia. The text subject determines which of them is used. However, the text in 2 Thess.2:1-8 is about a rapture, not a falling away. as verse 7 confirms, with the phrase, 'until he is taken out of the way,' as verse 3 read 'departure.'

The passage from 2 Thess.2:1-8 is the only text in the Bible that fully supports the pre-trib rapture of the Church.


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Riberra

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the issue pertains to the use of both the Greek word apostasia and the Latin word, discessio. Both words have various meanings, such as that which is in use today from the KJV alteration, of apostasy, from the original word, departure, in 2 Thess.2:3.

The word departure, or to depart. was used from 325 A,D. when Jerome copied the Septuagint into the Vulgate, until the 16th century, by the first seven English churches. Until the KJV altered it in their 1611 Bible, to apostasy. Which is another meaning for apostasia.
Simple rule:

Apostasia = Departure from faith .... not a departure from the Earth.

Simple rule number 2 :

We will be caught up [rapiemur] to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in the AIR UNTO the COMING OF JESUS .... The rapture is TIED to the COMING OF JESUS in THE CLOUDS with THE SOUND of a TRUMPET Matthew 24:29-31 and they shall see the son of man coming in Glory in the Clouds...and he shall send His angels with a great SOUND of A TRUMPET to gather together his elect...
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

:doh:

Now you're getting really good showing everyone how delusional you really are. Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.
 
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In addition, you are contradicting the work and study of Thomas Ice, PhD, who wrote an article about this

I'm quite familiar with Dr. Ice. In fact, I quoted him recently to a brother on another forum who was insisting that Irenaeus was a pretribber. Here's what Dr. Ice had to say:

"Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism."
 
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