Saint Peter says: Second Advent = Second Resurrection - All Other Theories Debunked

[Quasar92]

BABerean2 wrote:

"You are attempting to force the text to fit the system of interpretation that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War. Since that time it has spread like a virus through much of the evangelical Church. Many now promoting the doctrine have no idea where it came from.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
It is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The Church and Israel cannot be separated within Hebrews 8:6-13.
We find in Hebrews 13:20 that the New Covenant is "everlasting". God will not go back and deal with the modern nation of Israel under the now "obsolete" Old Covenant system with Moses as the mediator, instead of Christ.
Therefore, John Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine cannot be correct and must be rejected.



There is no pretrib removal of the Church so that God can go back and deal with the modern nation of Israel during a future time of 7 years.


In Hebrews 13:20 the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, the "Church Age" does not end before the Second Coming of Christ, as pretrib proponents claim."

.
You are the one who is forcing the Scriptures to say things it most certainly is not. It is full of eisegesis and faulty hermeneutics. There is nothing faulty with the covenants, but your understanding of them most certainly is. The everlasting New Covenant of Grace was first predicted/prophecied to Israel, in Jer.31:31-34. It was fulfilled/delivered by Jesus in Lk.20:22, to His disciples, made manifest at His death, in Lk.23:46. Beginning at the founding of His Church at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.

From that point on, both Jews and Gentiles alike, who have believed/received Jess as their Lord and Savior, have also been baptised into the Church Jesus founded, by the Holy Spirit, in 1 Cor.12:12-13. While Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiahand have not yet participated in the New Covenant of Grace. Nor will they participate in it until the second coming of Christ, at the end of the seven years of tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14:4-5. Those are the Scriptura facts and whyIsrael and the Church are two separate entities at this time.

As I have told you previously, Margaret MacDonald and Joh Darby DID NOT invent he pre-trib rapture of the Church. But rather, they RESTORED the teachings of it from being swept under the carpet by the RCC for more than 1,600 years, due to their teachings of Amillennialism that rejects both the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Go to the following link, consisting of four consecutive posts that reveal the BIBLICAL TEACHING OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, at my website below:

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/...he-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church#.WOEMhaL_oa4

After you have read it all, either prove there is a single Scriptural fact you find to be false, with Scriptural support for it, or they are the true facts, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, and your views are false. One of the problems you have, is your mixing of the prophetic timing, such as the New Jerusalem, which will not come into existence until in the next age, after God provides a New Heaven and Earth, in Rev.21:1-3. It does not take place in the present age. Another factor that refutes your views, is in the second coming of Jesus from His marriage to the Bride/Church in Heaven, it will be WITH His Church He caught up to be with Him forever, seven years before, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, 14; Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

Quasar92

 

[jgr]

As I have told you previously, Margaret MacDonald and Joh Darby DID NOT invent he pre-trib rapture of the Church. But rather, they RESTORED the teachings of it from being swept under the carpet by the RCC for more than 1,600 years, due to their teachings of Amillennialism that rejects both the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Eschatology of the Early Post-Apostolic Period

Didache

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord.

Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Epistle of Barnabas

Barnabas 1:7
For the Lord made known to us by His prophets things past and present, giving us likewise the firstfruits of the taste of things future. And seeing each of these things severally coming to pass, according as He spake, we ought to offer a richer and higher offering to the fear of Him. But I, not as though I were a teacher, but as one of yourselves, will show forth a few things, whereby ye shall be gladdened in the present circumstances.

First Clement

1Clem 17:1
Let us be imitators also of them which went about in goatskins and sheepskins, preaching the coming of Christ. We mean Elijah and Elisha and likewise Ezekiel, the prophets, and besides them those men also that obtained a good report.

Second Clement

2Clem 17:4
For the Lord said, I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and languages. Herein He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each man according to his works.

Shepherd of Hermas

2[23]:5 Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty works, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If therefore ye prepare yourselves beforehand, and repent (and turn) unto the Lord with your whole heart, ye shall be able to escape it, if your heart be made pure and without blemish, and if for the remaining days of your life ye serve the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord and He will set them straight.

Note: This sounds like a pretrib rapture. But:

2[6]:7 Ye therefore that work righteousness be steadfast, and be not double-minded, that ye may have admission with the holy angels. Blessed are ye, as many as endure patiently the great tribulation that cometh, and as many as shall not deny their life.

Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter III.-Christ Was Possessed of a Body After His Resurrection.

And thus was He, with the flesh, received up in their sight unto Him that sent Him, being with that same flesh to come again, accompanied by glory and power. For, say the [holy] oracles, "This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye have seen Him go unto heaven." But if they say that He will come at the end of the world without a body, how shall those "see Him that pierced Him," and when they recognise Him, "mourn for themselves? " For incorporeal beings have neither form nor figure, nor the aspect of an animal possessed of shape, because their nature is in itself simple.

Polycarp

Polycarp 2:1
Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth, forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave unto him glory and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.



This is in fact a considerably reduced sample, including only a small subset of occurrences of the word “come” or its derivations across the cited writings. A perusal of each of these writings in their entirety reveals significant additional prophetically-related commentary in a number of instances. In such perusal, what is conspicuously absent is commentary supporting the majority of the doctrines unique to contemporary dispensationalism e.g. pretrib rapture, kingdom postponement, Israel apart from the Church, etc. There is significant evidence of historic premillennial persuasion. With the exception of this evidence, however, it is reasonable to conclude that the eschatological doctrines of contemporary dispensationalism were virtually nonexistent in the early post-apostolic era in which the cited writings were produced.

 

[BABerean2]

You are the one who is forcing the Scriptures to say things it most certainly is not. It is full of eisegesis and faulty hermeneutics. There is nothing faulty with the covenants, but your understanding of them most certainly is. The everlasting New Covenant of Grace was first predicted/prophecied to Israel, in Jer.31:31-34. It was fulfilled/delivered by Jesus in Lk.20:22, to His disciples, made manifest at His death, in Lk.23:46. Beginning at the founding of His Church at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.

From that point on, both Jews and Gentiles alike, who have believed/received Jess as their Lord and Savior, have also been baptised into the Church Jesus founded, by the Holy Spirit, in 1 Cor.12:12-13. While Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiahand have not yet participated in the New Covenant of Grace. Nor will they participate in it until the second coming of Christ, at the end of the seven years of tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14:4-5. Those are the Scriptura facts and whyIsrael and the Church are two separate entities at this time.

The claim that all of Israel rejected the Messiah does not match the text.
Some of the Israelites rejected the Messiah and some Israelites like Paul (Romans 11:1) accepted the Messiah.

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　


We find in Romans 9 that a "remnant" of Israel will be saved. What is the meaning of the word "remnant" ?

Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

This is confirmed by what Peter said on the Day of Pentecost.

He addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
During the first few years of the Church almost all of the members were Israelites.

For some strange reason you seem to be attempting to ignore the fulfilled New Covenant in Hebrews 8:6-13.
It contains the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is bracketed by text making it plain that the New Covenant was fulfilled in the first century.


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

.

 

[Quasar92]

Eschatology of the Early Post-Apostolic Period

Didache

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord.

Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Epistle of Barnabas

Barnabas 1:7
For the Lord made known to us by His prophets things past and present, giving us likewise the firstfruits of the taste of things future. And seeing each of these things severally coming to pass, according as He spake, we ought to offer a richer and higher offering to the fear of Him. But I, not as though I were a teacher, but as one of yourselves, will show forth a few things, whereby ye shall be gladdened in the present circumstances.

First Clement

1Clem 17:1
Let us be imitators also of them which went about in goatskins and sheepskins, preaching the coming of Christ. We mean Elijah and Elisha and likewise Ezekiel, the prophets, and besides them those men also that obtained a good report.

Second Clement

2Clem 17:4
For the Lord said, I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and languages. Herein He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each man according to his works.

Shepherd of Hermas

2[23]:5 Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty works, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If therefore ye prepare yourselves beforehand, and repent (and turn) unto the Lord with your whole heart, ye shall be able to escape it, if your heart be made pure and without blemish, and if for the remaining days of your life ye serve the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord and He will set them straight.

Note: This sounds like a pretrib rapture. But:

2[6]:7 Ye therefore that work righteousness be steadfast, and be not double-minded, that ye may have admission with the holy angels. Blessed are ye, as many as endure patiently the great tribulation that cometh, and as many as shall not deny their life.

Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter III.-Christ Was Possessed of a Body After His Resurrection.

And thus was He, with the flesh, received up in their sight unto Him that sent Him, being with that same flesh to come again, accompanied by glory and power. For, say the [holy] oracles, "This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye have seen Him go unto heaven." But if they say that He will come at the end of the world without a body, how shall those "see Him that pierced Him," and when they recognise Him, "mourn for themselves? " For incorporeal beings have neither form nor figure, nor the aspect of an animal possessed of shape, because their nature is in itself simple.

Polycarp

Polycarp 2:1
Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth, forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave unto him glory and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.



This is in fact a considerably reduced sample, including only a small subset of occurrences of the word “come” or its derivations across the cited writings. A perusal of each of these writings in their entirety reveals significant additional prophetically-related commentary in a number of instances. In such perusal, what is conspicuously absent is commentary supporting the majority of the doctrines unique to contemporary dispensationalism e.g. pretrib rapture, kingdom postponement, Israel apart from the Church, etc. There is significant evidence of historic premillennial persuasion. With the exception of this evidence, however, it is reasonable to conclude that the eschatological doctrines of contemporary dispensationalism were virtually nonexistent in the early post-apostolic era in which the cited writings were produced.

There s nothing in my above post #421 that refutes Jesus second coming to the earth that you posted. But you obviously did not read my post, or if you did you did not understand it, or accept the Scriptural facts that support it.

What busts the belief of many, there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the Church, is the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, and Jesus return in His second coming to the earth WITH them, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

You will find nothing from the teachings of the church fathers about a rapture of he church of any kind, let alone the coming pre-trib rapture of the church. You need to review my post #421 again very carefully to understand the reasons for that. The fact of the matter is, none of the Gospels teach a pre-trib rapture of the church either, except reference made to it in three places. Go to the link of fur consecutive poss to learn what Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, teach about the pre-trib rapture of the church, that comes straight from the Bible.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Go to the following link, consisting of four consecutive posts that reveal the BIBLICAL TEACHING OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, at my website below:
http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/...he-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church#.WOEMhaL_oa4

On the aforespecified site, we see the following claim regarding the use of the word "apostasia" in 2 Thes. 2:3:
"In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'"
The claim is that it is the rapture which is being referenced.

A definition of "discessio" is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

The use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is completely consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing whatsoever to do with rapture.

How then is it that essentially the same word used in 2 Thes. 2:3 can mean rapture, which is completely inconsistent with its subdefinition, and use in Acts 21:21?

 

[jgr]

You will find nothing from the teachings of the church fathers about a rapture of he church of any kind, let alone the coming pre-trib rapture of the church. You need to review my post #421 again very carefully to understand the reasons for that.

If you're referring to your claim...:

But rather, they RESTORED the teachings of it from being swept under the carpet by the RCC for more than 1,600 years

....then you've overlooked the historical fact that significantly identifiable apostasy did not begin until the 4th century under Constantine, and the increasingly pernicious influence of the papacy.

My previous post focused on the early post-apostolic period of the first approximately 200 years of the Church. Both amillenialism and premillenialism were present during this time. There are no recorded complaints from premils that amils were sweeping anything under the carpet, simply because there was nothing to sweep. Neither premils nor amils knew anything of dispensational doctrines because they were patently nonexistent.

We are speaking in particular of three doctrines integral and indispensable to the existence of contemporary dispensationalism: (1) Pretribulation rapture (2) A distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven (3) A distinction between the Church and Israel, and separate programs for each. There are of course various other doctrines.

If the aforementioned dispensational doctrines were an extant and integral part of Christian theology during the early post-apostolic period, we should see ample evidence thereof in the records of the Church Fathers and apologists over this period.

We do not.

 

[Quasar92]

BABerean2 wrote:

The claim that all of Israel rejected the Messiah does not match the text.
Some of the Israelites rejected the Messiah and some Israelites like Paul (Romans 11:1) accepted the Messiah.

Quasar's reply: In Romans 11:26, Paul wrote, "All Israel will be saved." Read this carefully: Israel was decreed by God to go through the seven year tribulation, recorded in Dan.9:27. When that event takes place, two thirds of Israel will be killed, as recorded in Zech.13:8. That is the remnant that will be left of them, and will also fulfill Romans 11:26! That is what the mourning is all about in Zech,12:10-14 and Mt.24:30.

BABerean2 wrote: Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　

Quasar's reply: Reference to Israel means the nation of Israel, predominantly a nation of people. It has nothing to do with either Jacob's brother Esau, father of the Edomites, or of I(sraelis who have believed/received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, who are the Jews who belong to the one body of Christ, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.

BABereans2 wrote: We find in Romans 9 that a "remnant" of Israel will be saved. What is the meaning of the word "remnant" ?

Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Quasar's reply: As previously addressed above, yes, God chose Israel before either the New Covenant, the Church or Jesus existed and were/are a nation of people.　

BABerean2 wrote: This is confirmed by what Peter said on the Day of Pentecost.

He addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
During the first few years of the Church almost all of the members were Israelites.

Quasar's reply: The 3,000 Israelites believed/accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior, through the free gift of God's New Covenant of Grace, and became members of the body of Christ, His Church! Those numbers [3,000] are tiny by comparison the being as numerous as the sands of the sea, isn't it?! Yes, the early Church consisted mostly of Jews/Israelites

BABerean2 wrote: For some strange reason you seem to be attempting to ignore the fulfilled New Covenant in Hebrews 8:6-13.
It contains the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is bracketed by text making it plain that the New Covenant was fulfilled in the first century

Quasar's reply: I have ignored nothing pertinent to the subject being discussed. Hebrews was written to Israel, not to the Church. That the New Covenant was ratified through Jesus death on a cross in the first century is correct. I have no argument with that.

BABerean2 wrote: Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Quasar's reply: Covenants are binding agreements, which in the case of this thread subject, is between God and man. The New Covenant was put in place by God, because Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, He had provided for them. As a result, God opened the door for Gentiles to obtain salvation by His Grace, through the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus returned from heaven to establish Paul as His Apostle, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, recorded in Acts 9:15.

I am still waiting for your response to my post #421, which refutes your claim, there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church. Either prove the Scriptures that teach it are false, or your views are.


Quasar92　

.

 

[Quasar92]

On the aforespecified site, we see the following claim regarding the use of the word "apostasia" in 2 Thes. 2:3:
"In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'"
The claim is that it is the rapture which is being referenced.

A definition of "discessio" is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

The use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is completely consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing whatsoever to do with rapture.

How then is it that essentially the same word used in 2 Thes. 2:3 can mean rapture, which is completely inconsistent with its subdefinition, and use in Acts 21:21?

Review the translation of 2 Thess.2:3 and its relationship to verse 7:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Sorry, but you haven't addressed the question, which is the difference in meaning and usage of "discessio" between Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3, as described above.

 

[jgr]

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384)

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is neither explicit nor implicit.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

 

[jgr]

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale.
Same with Cranmer, who was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associated of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

 

[BABerean2]

I am still waiting for your response to my post #421, which refutes your claim, there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church. Either prove the Scriptures that teach it are false, or your views are.

As you know, when the Apostle Paul wrote the first letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses in the text. It was one continuous letter.

1Th 4:13　 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.　

1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　
("sleep" in this verse refers to those Christians who have died and whose souls are now in heaven with Christ.)

1Th 4:15　 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.　

1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　
(The word "descend" means to come down. In this case come down from heaven.)

1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　(This is the transformation of those living.)

1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　
(The word "But" is a conjunction which connects the event at the end of chapter 4 to chapter 5.)

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
(Here we have the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief in the night". The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.)　

1Th 5:3　 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.　

1Th 5:4　 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.　

1Th 5:5　 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.　

1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
(Here the word "sleep" is used in the sense of not being aware of the truth. It is not being applied to the Church because Paul referred to "as others do".)　

1Th 5:7　 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
(Here again the word sleep does not refer to the dead in Christ, because Paul used the words "those who".)　

1Th 5:8　 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.　

1Th 5:9　 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,　
(The word "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same Greek word. God's wrath is poured out on the unbelievers after we are gathered in the event at the end of chapter 4. The time of God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet.)

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.　
(We know the word "sleep" here is referring to the dead in Christ because Paul used it with the word "we". This proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:11　 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.　


We find above the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of that event at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

There is nothing in the text about a trip back to heaven. It is a manmade invention.

There is no 7 year stay in heaven found in the text. It must be imported from another passage.

The resurrection event comes at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, as understood by the Church for about 1800 years.

There is no pretrib rapture found in the text of this passage.

 

[FredVB]

The claim that all of Israel rejected the Messiah does not match the text.
Some of the Israelites rejected the Messiah and some Israelites like Paul (Romans 11:1) accepted the Messiah.

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

We find in Romans 9 that a "remnant" of Israel will be saved. What is the meaning of the word "remnant" ?

Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

This is confirmed by what Peter said on the Day of Pentecost.

He addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
During the first few years of the Church almost all of the members were Israelites.

For some strange reason you seem to be attempting to ignore the fulfilled New Covenant in Hebrews 8:6-13.
It contains the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is bracketed by text making it plain that the New Covenant was fulfilled in the first century.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The new covenant was promised for the people of Israel, when there would be a remnant of their descendants. It was established through Christ when he came, and gave his life. The Christian church is not Israel, the promises are still for the remnant of the people of Israel. Christian believers who are gentile can come to Christ and have the new covenant too, with being grafted in to it with the remnant of Israel, through Christ. Yahweh's love for Israel was unending, Jeremiah 31:3. So there is to be still the time to come when all of Israel will be saved, as it was said. The church of believers consists of believers from Jews and from gentiles.

 

[BABerean2]

The new covenant was promised for the people of Israel, when there would be a remnant of their descendants. It was established through Christ when he came, and gave his life. The Christian church is not Israel, the promises are still for the remnant of the people of Israel. Christian believers who are gentile can come to Christ and have the new covenant too, with being grafted in to it with the remnant of Israel, through Christ. Yahweh's love for Israel was unending. So there is to be still the time to come when all of Israel will be saved, as it was said. The church of believers consists of believers from Jews and from gentiles.

Mat_10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat_15:24　 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Luk_1:16　 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

Luk_2:34　 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

Act_2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

Act_2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Act_10:36　 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—


Rom_9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Rom_11:26　 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
(All of Israel that is Israel from Romans 9:6 will be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.)

Php_3:5　 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
(Paul was and Israelite who accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.)

............................................

The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in the passage below.


Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

.

 

[CuriousWes]

There is nothing in the text about a trip back to heaven. It is a manmade invention.

The passage in Acts of Jesus' ascension gives us the pattern for His return. Acts 1:9-11 When He left Earth, He ascended to the clouds, then to heaven. The angels said that He would return in the same way. When He returns, He will appear in the clouds and descend to Earth.

When looking at Acts 3:21, He won't leave heaven until the restoration of all things spoken of by the prophets of God. While it's debatable as to what is meant by "restoration of all things" I'm fairly certain the prophets of old weren't talking about a rapture.

 

[Quasar92]

Sorry, but you haven't addressed the question, which is the difference in meaning and usage of "discessio" between Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3, as described above.

Sorry, but you haven't addressed the question, which is the difference in meaning and usage of "discessio" between Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3, as described above.

I wasn't specifically addressing your post, to begin with. The primary original word used in 2 Thess.2:3, rather than the "apostasy," "falling away" or "rebellion." was the Greek word, "apostasia," that has various meanings, beside "departure, or "to depart, such as "apostasy" or "falling away," depending upon the text the word is used in.

When Jerome translated the Greek Septuagint, he used the Latin word, "discessio," for the Greek, "apostasia,: in which both words meaning, "to depart" or "departure," in the context of 2 Thess.2:3. Which is about a rapture, not about a falling away. Confirmed in verse 7, where Paul used the phrase, "taken out of the way," confirming "departure" in verse 3.


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

As you know, when the Apostle Paul wrote the first letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses in the text. It was one continuous letter.

1Th 4:13　 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.　

1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　
("sleep" in this verse refers to those Christians who have died and whose souls are now in heaven with Christ.)

1Th 4:15　 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.　

1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　
(The word "descend" means to come down. In this case come down from heaven.)

1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　(This is the transformation of those living.)

1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　
(The word "But" is a conjunction which connects the event at the end of chapter 4 to chapter 5.)

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
(Here we have the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief in the night". The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.)　

1Th 5:3　 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.　

1Th 5:4　 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.　

1Th 5:5　 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.　

1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
(Here the word "sleep" is used in the sense of not being aware of the truth. It is not being applied to the Church because Paul referred to "as others do".)　

1Th 5:7　 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
(Here again the word sleep does not refer to the dead in Christ, because Paul used the words "those who".)　

1Th 5:8　 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.　

1Th 5:9　 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,　
(The word "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same Greek word. God's wrath is poured out on the unbelievers after we are gathered in the event at the end of chapter 4. The time of God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet.)

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.　
(We know the word "sleep" here is referring to the dead in Christ because Paul used it with the word "we". This proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:11　 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.　


We find above the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of that event at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

There is nothing in the text about a trip back to heaven. It is a manmade invention.

There is no 7 year stay in heaven found in the text. It must be imported from another passage.

The resurrection event comes at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, as understood by the Church for about 1800 years.

There is no pretrib rapture found in the text of this passage.

Let me make this abundantly clear: I have read and studied eschatology for 40 years and earned qualifications to teach it from two Bible Colleges, as I have previously informed you. Yiour above views rejecting the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, are catagoricly rejected. Your above views are thoroughly refuted in the following four posts in the link below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Explain to me why the Church is found in heaven at the marriage of the Bride /Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8 and then return WITH Gim in His second coming to the earth, if they had not been previously caught up to Jesus in the air, in 1 Thess.4:17, and taken to heaven with Him as recorded in John 14:2-3, 28, before the tribulation begins, as documented in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8?


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Let me make this abundantly clear: I have read and studied eschatology for 40 years and earned qualifications to teach it from two Bible Colleges, as I have previously informed you. Yiour above views rejecting the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, are catagoricly rejected. Your above views are thoroughly refuted in the following four posts in the link below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Explain to me why the Church is found in heaven at the marriage of the Bride /Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8 and then return WITH Gim in His second coming to the earth, if they had not been previously caught up to Jesus in the air, in 1 Thess.4:17, and taken to heaven with Him as recorded in John 14:2-3, 28, before the tribulation begins, as documented in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8?


Quasar92

You seem to ignore the fact that the number of years of teaching a particular system of Bible interpretation is in no way related to the correctness of that doctrine.

Is an old Jehovah's witness more correct than a young Jehovah's Witness ?


Why are there members of the Church in heaven? They are dead.
They have died and their souls are now with Christ.
Christ was talking to the Apostles in John 14:2-3, and they are with Him now.
If I die tomorrow, I will join them.

Rev_6:9　 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

There are many Christians in heaven now.


When presented with the text of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 you throw out your credentials and time teaching John Darby's doctrine, but failed to show a trip to heaven within the passage.

You cannot separate Israel and the Church in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, so you claim it was not written to the Church, even though the word Church is found below.


Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

The event at the end of 1 Thessalonians occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, as revealed by the timing at the beginning of chapter 5.
Then the dead in Christ come with Him to Armageddon.
This was the understanding of the majority of the Church for about 1800 years. Surely, you are aware of this fact.

 

[Quasar92]

You seem to ignore the fact that the number of years of teaching a particular system of Bible interpretation is in no way related to the correctness of that doctrine.

Is an old Jehovah's witness more correct than a young Jehovah's Witness ?


Why are there members of the Church in heaven? They are dead.
They have died and their souls are now with Christ.
Christ was talking to the Apostles in John 14:2-3, and they are with Him now.
If I die tomorrow, I will join them.

Rev_6:9　 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

There are many Christians in heaven now.


When presented with the text of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 you throw out your credentials and time teaching John Darby's doctrine, but failed to show a trip to heaven within the passage.

You cannot separate Israel and the Church in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, so you claim it was not written to the Church, even though the word Church is found below.


Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

The event at the end of 1 Thessalonians occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, as revealed by the timing at the beginning of chapter 5.
Then the dead in Christ come with Him to Armageddon.
This was the understanding of the majority of the Church for about 1800 years. Surely, you are aware of this fact.

You have yet to respond to the Clear

You are making liars out of the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church! Let me see your answer to the following and stop hiding behind the New Covenant, that is a different subject entirely. You're wasting your time telling me things I knew long before you were born!

>>>Explain to me why the Church is found in heaven at the marriage of the Bride /Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8 and then return WITH Him in His second coming to the earth, if they had not been previously caught up to Jesus in the air, in 1 Thess.4:17, and taken to heaven with Him as recorded in John 14:2-3, 28, before the tribulation begins, as documented in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8?<<<

See the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church below, together with the chronological order of end time events, and the list of esteemed theologians who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church, you think you know better than they do! I will spend no time rebuking you on the many exegetical errors you make in the views you express!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

the list of esteemed theologians who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Any born before 1800?