The word "first resurrection" which misleads many

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. First of all, the word dispensation just means "stewardship".
Paul uses this word about Grace.
Covenant theologians may not use the word but they still have to admit God dealt with men in different ways and in different ways.
The Covenants and dispensations work hand in hand.
For example, the Law of Moses was basically 613 laws and 1000 or more other statutes and commandments. It was till the seed should come which was Messiah. That time frame is called a dispensation a period of time for people under that covenant.

2. Dispensationalism is built out of similar patterns of each age.
Your position is a- millennialism and that word is not in the Bible at all. Does that mean there is nothing after the first thousand years reign of the Kingdom? No!

3. You can be mad at the school of thought and debate certain just like your replacement theology and spiritual Jew theory.
All school of thoughts are most likely not perfect about every jot and tittle.

4. It is quite ironic that you accuse me of being a disciple and follower of Darby which was not really true in the first place.
And you accuse me of following men's traditions like I never study to see if what they say is true, which is a true Berean according to scripture.
Dispensationalism is a school of thought but Berean has taken a school of thought and has formed a denomination to peddle it.

5. You accuse me of being a follower of men and yet you are the one posting all your berean teachers, baptists who down dispensationalism because somebody may have taught it wrong in the first place and the brethren movement etc.
This is nothing less than a demonstration of outright hypocrisy.
The evidence weighs much more against you than I about following traditions of men.
The whole of your posting is a writing contradiction.
Your one side fits all throws the baby out with the bath water and your tunnel vision keeps you in the dark. Step into the light and please quit being so antagonistic.
I don't like your system of the Berean doctrine but I am not out to club you to death over it.
I am concerned about proper hermeneutics to rightly dividing the word. Jerry kelso

Ernest Reisinger's article on the History of Dispensationalism in America reveals the recent history of the doctrine.
Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons, no American pastor taught the doctrine at the time of the Revolutionary War. John Darby brought the doctrine to our nation. This is a historical fact that you will have to deal with.

Replacement Theology is replacing the Children of the Promise with the Children of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.
It replaces the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then".
It replaces the Son who is "heir" to the land in Matthew 21, with those who reject him as the "chief cornerstone".
It replaces the one Seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

A soap dispenser dispenses soap, in the same way that Paul dispensed the Gospel of the New Covenant, found in Hebrews 8:6-13.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Ernest Reisinger's article on the History of Dispensationalism in America reveals the recent history of the doctrine.
Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons, no American pastor taught the doctrine at the time of the Revolutionary War. John Darby brought the doctrine to our nation. This is a historical fact that you will have to deal with.

Replacement Theology is replacing the Children of the Promise with the Children of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.
It replaces the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then".
It replaces the Son who is "heir" to the land in Matthew 21, with those who reject him as the "chief cornerstone".
It replaces the one Seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

A soap dispenser dispenses soap, in the same way that Paul dispensed the Gospel of the New Covenant, found in Hebrews 8:6-13.

.

baberean2,

1. I already debutted your historical fact about history starting with Darby and you run away.

2. The biblical fact is that dispensation is a biblical word.
Paul said it was given to him to the Gentiles the mystery of Christ about the body of Christ.
This was a particular stewardship for a particular time till the pre-trib rapture.
So it really doesn't matter what you think about Darby or when ever you thought dispensation began.
Paul talked about it way before Darby.

2. Replacement Theology is robbing Israel of its covenant promises concerning their land of Israel Genesis 12:1-4-15; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7. This is Jesus told the Jews in the Sermon on the Mount Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth Matthew 5:5.
The Kingdom reign is eternal Daniel 7:27 was promised to David and his house 2 Samuel 7:12-16; 24-26; 1 Chronicles 28:-7; Isaiah 9:6-7; 66:8-13; etc.

3. Roman's 9:8 is talking about the children of the flesh of Israelites not gentiles. The believing Jews are the children of God. This is why Paul said not all Israel is Israel.
The seed of Issac are elected Jews who are saved not gentiles. It reverts back to the bond woman and her son would not be the heir but Issac would be. So your word so doesn't fit with Romans 11:26.

4. Matthew 21 was spoken to the and about the Jews rejection of Jesus.
Verse 45; the Pharisees perceived that Jesus spoke of them.
Verse 42 was talking about the stone that the builders rejected etc.
Verse 43 speaks of the KoG (spiritual aspect) that comes without observation Luke 17:20-21.
It would be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The nation would be the church of believing Jews and Gentiles called the church.
The fruits thereof would be the results of salvation propagated by the church.
This is the gospel of salvation not the gospel of the physical KoH reign on earth.

5. Galatians 3:16 is about the gospel of salvation not the gospel of the physical KoH reign.
Salvation was promised to the whole world John 3:16.
This has nothing to do with Israel's gifts and callings Romans 11:29 which has to do with the eternal Davidic kingdom reign as head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4; Isaiah 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:24-27.
Once again you literally have no clue and are blinded by your one sided tunnel vision and that is why you don't want to accept the truth. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Replacement Theology is robbing Israel of its covenant promises concerning their land of Israel Genesis 12:1-4-15

Gen 12:1　 Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.　
Gen 12:2　 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.　
Gen 12:3　 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."　
Gen 12:4　 So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.　
Gen 12:5　 Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan.　
Gen 12:6　 Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh. And the Canaanites were then in the land.　
Gen 12:7　 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

　
(Mat 21:37　 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'　
Mat 21:38　
But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.)
(You are attempting to replace the Son, who is "heir" to the land, with those who rejected Him.)

You are replacing the words of Christ Himself, with those teaching a modern man-made doctrine.
This is the doctrine of the Pharisees who wanted to seize the inheritance of the true heir, who is Christ.



Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.　
(You are attempting to replace the One Seed with the many seeds.)

You try to ignore what Paul said in Galatians 3:16 in order to make your doctrine work.
Paul reveals to whom the promises were made.
Paul says the promises were made only to Christ.

If you think God has promised land to those who reject His Son, like the Pharisees did, then you need to read 1 John 2:22-23 and John 8:44.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Gen 12:1　 Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.　
Gen 12:2　 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.　
Gen 12:3　 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."　
Gen 12:4　 So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.　
Gen 12:5　 Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan.　
Gen 12:6　 Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh. And the Canaanites were then in the land.　
Gen 12:7　 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

　
(Mat 21:37　 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'　
Mat 21:38　
But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.)
(You are attempting to replace the Son, who is "heir" to the land, with those who rejected Him.)

You are replacing the words of Christ Himself, with those teaching a modern man-made doctrine.
This is the doctrine of the Pharisees who wanted to seize the inheritance of the true heir, who is Christ.



Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.　
(You are attempting to replace the One Seed with the many seeds.)

You try to ignore what Paul said in Galatians 3:16 in order to make your doctrine work.
Paul reveals to whom the promises were made.
Paul says the promises were made only to Christ.

If you think God has promised land to those who reject His Son, like the Pharisees did, then you need to read 1 John 2:22-23 and John 8:44.

.

baberean2,

1. All you are doing is disagreeing and stating your opinion.
You also state wrong conclusions and put words in my mouth.

2. It is a ridiculous to make the statement; if you think God has promised land to those who reject his son like the Pharisees etc.
I addressed that and have always said all of Israel will be saved for they will be saved in the tribulation. So no they won't be like the hypocritical Pharisees.
But you won't concede because you believe God is through with the Jewish nation concerning the physical KoH reign and your ridiculous spiritual Jew theory to the extreme.

3. 1 John 2:22-23; that is for anyone. This is nothing specific to the nation of Israel and their position in the KoH in this passage.
John 8:44; this was to the Jews in Jesus day but to not to every Jew in that day. This has nothing to do with the purging of Israel and their salvation in the last days to fulfill their KoH promises.
You can't take a generalization and make it fit any and every thing just because you want to. You are doing nothing but contriving and that is not rightly dividing the word.

4. Galatians 3:16; the promise was made to Abraham and his seed.
The many seeds will be as one which is Jews and Gentiles and our seed is Christ who is our Savior. This deals with salvation of the soul.
This has nothing to do with the gifts and callings of rulership position in the KoH as the head of nations.
God has ordained the Jewish nation with that position and has ordained the church age saints to have their positions throughout the earthly KoH and throughout the universe.

5. It is clear to see you are very unfair in exegesis and will do anything to push your belief and your teachers wrong doctrines.
I believe in context that is why I explain so much about the context and you can't rebut it that is why you just disagree and say I'm wrong and say I say things that I didn't.
You need to learn correct context of the scripture and learn how to reconcile them together properly.
You need to learn and understand the correct Jewish perspective about the KoH and their eternal inheritance and gifts and callings. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Galatians 3:16; the promise was made to Abraham and his seed.
The many seeds will be as one which is Jews and Gentiles and our seed is Christ who is our Savior. This deals with salvation of the soul.
This has nothing to do with the gifts and callings of rulership position in the KoH as the head of nations.
God has ordained the Jewish nation with that position and has ordained the church age saints to have their positions throughout the earthly KoH and throughout the universe.

If you continue to base a doctrine on a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God you will never get it right, because there is no difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.
I have shown you this truth on several occasions.

Mat 19:23　 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.　

Mat 19:24　 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."　


Based on 2 Peter 3:10, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up and dissolved.
Therefore, there is no eternal land promise on this earth.

Christ is the head, not a nation of people.

The New Covenant is based on faith in Christ, instead of bloodline.
It was not made with a nation as a whole, but with individuals of that nation, based on their acceptance of His Blood sacrifice.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　
Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.　



The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 8:6-13, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, destroys the doctrine you are promoting.
Israel and the Church cannot be separated in these passages.
Almost all of the first people to accept the New Covenant were Israelites.
The Gentiles were grafted in after Stephen reviewed the whole history of Israel and was then stoned to death.
.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[jerry kelso]

If you continue to base a doctrine on a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God you will never get it right, because there is no difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.
I have shown you this truth on several occasions.

Mat 19:23　 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.　

Mat 19:24　 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."　


Based on 2 Peter 3:10, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up and dissolved.
Therefore, there is no eternal land promise on this earth.

Christ is the head, not a nation of people.

The New Covenant is based on faith in Christ, instead of bloodline.
It was not made with a nation as a whole, but with individuals of that nation, based on their acceptance of His Blood sacrifice.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　
Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.　



The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 8:6-13, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, destroys the doctrine you are promoting.
Israel and the Church cannot be separated in these passages.
Almost all of the first people to accept the New Covenant were Israelites.
The Gentiles were grafted in after Stephen reviewed the whole history of Israel and was then stoned to death.
.

baberean2,

1. Matthew 19:23; the KoH is talking about the physical KoH. Matthew 4:17.
We are never told to seek the KoH for salvation or that it comes without observation.

2. Matthew 19:24; the KoG is the spiritual aspect and it would easier to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the KoG.

3. See you never look at the total picture. All you do is take what you think it means and only show half truth. That is why I said you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

4. Faith in bloodline is stupid for you to bring up as no one is saying that Jews or Gentiles are saved by bloodline.
That is your opinion and a backhanded way to keep the conversation going and a slant to put words in my mouth and give the perception that the biblical view is wrong and your opinion is right. Quit bringing things up that are not a valid issue.
It shows how unfair you are in exegesis and rebutting.

5. The nation of Israel always had individuals who were righteous before God and some were not.
Salvation has always been the responsibility of the individual not any nation.
All individual Jews will be saved in the tribulation under the NC as a nation of all righteous people Romans 11:25.
Zechariah 14:9 says 2/3 of the rebels will and be cut off.
Once again you are basing your doctrine on faulty logic arhat is unscriptural.

6. You taute scriptures but have no understanding of context and how to properly reconcile scriptures together to make them harmonize.

7. The mystery of the church was not understood till after Stephen died.
Peter gave the same historical account of the basic theme which was the Jews were the ones who killed Christ because of their rejection and chants of Crucify him, give us Barabbas; who was a criminal and caused the Romans to have him killed by crucifixion.
I have told you before the mystery of the church was ratified at Calvary but not known until Acts 10 and in Ephesians 3.
You don't understand plain statements or gradual revelation or context because of it.
Gentiles were saved by being proselyted into Judaism under the law and the NC Gospel in the early church before Acts 10.
Acts 10 was a whole different context.
Acts 10:28; it was unlawful for a gentile to keep company or come unto one of another nation but God hath told me not to call any man common or unclean.
This is not the same thing as being nice to the stranger at the gate and Gentile proselyted.
Use some common sense logic for a change instead of your illogical sense to try and prove your false understanding. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The mystery of the church was not understood till after Stephen died.

Mat 16:16　 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."　
Mat 16:17　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.　
Mat 16:18　 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.　


Rom 9:24　 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?　
Rom 9:25　 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."　
Rom 9:26　 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."　
Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(The promise of the New Covenant Church of Christ is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

 

[jerry kelso]

Revelation 8:2 is after a set of "we" angels did the sealing in chapter 7.
Who were the "we" angels?
They are seven angels...and in Rev. 8 the seven angels.

The four angels do not seal anyone, but remain on the four corners.
They get handed the trumpet plagues by the "we" set of angels.

vinsight 4u,

1. The 4 angels standing on the corners of the earth are the ones in Revelation 9:4.
There is nothing that says or implies the 4 angels had anything to with the 7 trumpet angels or that they handed the trumpets to the trumpet angels.
9:4 says; and it was commanded them means it was the same 4 angels standing on the 4 corners of the earth etc.
Your assumption is wrong and not scriptural.

 

[jerry kelso]

Mat 16:16　 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."　
Mat 16:17　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.　
Mat 16:18　 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.　


Rom 9:24　 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?　
Rom 9:25　 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."　
Rom 9:26　 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."　
Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(The promise of the New Covenant Church of Christ is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

baberean2,

1. Why do you continue to ignore gradual revelation of how things unfolded.
Christ telling Peter he would build the church on him and the other apostles and prophets 1 Corinthians 3 didn't have nothing to with revealing the mystery of the church otherwise Peter wouldn't have been given the vision of the clean and unclean.

2. Romans 9:24 was after Acts 10; verse 25 about Hosea had to with Jews not gentiles as well as verse 26-27.

3. Jeremiah 31:31-34 was the New Covenant offered to Israel cause gentiles had no covenant.
Hebrews 9:15; died for the transgressions of the first covenant.
The death, burial, and resurrection was already prophesied and the church was ordained already so the New Covenant was going to happen whether the Jews accepted the New Covenant or not.
They rejected Christ and that is why they won't have it as a nation till the tribulation when all Jewish believers will be the whole nation saved by the NC.
Jeremiah was talking about the whole nation receiving the NC.
As you can see now since 70 A.D. Israel is still not in covenant with God as a nation.
You are wrong again and you will never be right in your wrongly dividing the word. You are not trying to be fair in exegesis. You are a tinkling symbol for wrong doctrine. Believe the truth instead of kicking against the pricks like Saul of Tarsus who thought he was doing God's service only to find out he had tunnel vision and was blinded spiritually. Jerry kelso

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Do you think Cornelius had eternal life because of his works on the day before he heard the Gospel and was filled with the Holy Spirit?

Eternal life begins the moment after receiving the holy spirit. Eternal death is permanent separation from God. Jesus tells you how to find God in Matthew 19, taking His advice there will get you the holy spirit.

If you're not understanding what I wrote, just think of it this way. What good is immortality without God? It's life in hell and then the Lake of Fire.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Why do you think the definite article was used in Revelation 8:2?
the seven angels
It means they were already in action before this verse.
What did they do?
They sealed the 144,000 as the set of "we" angels.

You're rambling with nonsense vinsight. John never mentioned a group of 7 angels prior to Revelation 8:1-2 and nowhere did John indicate "we" in Revelation 7:3 as a group of 7 angels on earth. The 7 angels in Revelation 8:1-2 are in the throne room before God. Two different locations. You're not testing the spirit and listening to the wrong guy.

 

[parousia70]

4. Matthew 21 was spoken to the and about the Jews rejection of Jesus.
Verse 45; the Pharisees perceived that Jesus spoke of them.
Verse 42 was talking about the stone that the builders rejected etc.
Verse 43 speaks of the KoG (spiritual aspect) that comes without observation Luke 17:20-21.
It would be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The nation would be the church of believing Jews and Gentiles called the church.
The fruits thereof would be the results of salvation propagated by the church.

Wait, what?
You Believe Matthew 21:33-45 is ALREADY FULFILLED?

When do you say this came to pass?

 

[jerry kelso]

Wait, what?
You Believe Matthew 21:33-45 is ALREADY FULFILLED?

When do you say this came to pass?

parousia70,

Matthew 23:37-39 Rejection of Jesus by the Jews under the Old Covenant of Law, before the cross.
Jesus was the rock of offence to the nation of unbelieving Jews and still are. That is why they are blinded today 1 Corinthians 3:13-16. Jerry kelso

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

Matthew 23:37-39 Rejection of Jesus by the Jews under the Old Covenant of Law, before the cross.
Jesus was the rock of offence to the nation of unbelieving Jews and still are. That is why they are blinded today 1 Corinthians 3:13-16. Jerry kelso

Sorry Jerry, that doesn't answer my question.

You said:

Matthew 21 was spoken to the and about the Jews rejection of Jesus.

I agree

Verse 45; the Pharisees perceived that Jesus spoke of them.

I also agree, and believe they were correct in their perception... do you?

Verse 42 was talking about the stone that the builders rejected etc.

Agreed. and the stone is Jesus, agreed?

Verse 43 speaks of the KoG (spiritual aspect) that comes without observation Luke 17:20-21.

No reason to disagree here.

It would be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The nation would be the church of believing Jews and Gentiles called the church.
The fruits thereof would be the results of salvation propagated by the church.

And here is the crux of my question to you... WHEN??
WHEN do you say this happened??

and by WHAT MECHANISM does Jesus say in Matthew 21:33-45 this Kingdom transfer would take place?

I'll post the entire passage... perhaps you cuold give your verse by verse commentary?

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

 

[jerry kelso]

Sorry Jerry, that doesn't answer my question.

You said:



I agree



I also agree, and believe they were correct in their perception... do you?



Agreed. and the stone is Jesus, agreed?



No reason to disagree here.



And here is the crux of my question to you... WHEN??
WHEN do you say this happened??

and by WHAT MECHANISM does Jesus say in Matthew 21:33-45 this Kingdom transfer would take place?

I'll post the entire passage... perhaps you cuold give your verse by verse commentary?

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

parousia70,

1. The Jews rejected Jesus before the crucifixion.

2. The Kingdom of God spiritual aspect was salvation.
Under the Old Covenant context in Jesus day the Jews were saved by believing in Jesus as the Messiah who would forgive their sins and they had to do the commandments to be blessed.

3. The KoG spiritual aspect that happened at Calvary is through the death of the cross and Christ resurrection.
Matthew 21:33-45 is about the spiritual kingdom or rule in the heart not the physical kingdom reign on earth.
The only transfer was the types of covering of sins by blood of bulls and goats to to the blood of Christ Hebrews 9:12-13 for remission of sins which is the New Testament Matthew 26:28.

4. The KoH physical kingdom reign was never consummated ever in conjunction with the restitution of all things that Peter was talking about in Acts 3:19.
Acts 1:6-7; Jesus told the disciples it wasn't for them to know the times of the restoration of the KoH reign on earth. We know now that the KoH reign will be restored after the tribulation when Jesus takes over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.

5. As far as parables they basically are illustrations to make a specific point.

6. The householder planting a vineyard and digged a wine press and lets it out to husbandsmen and the householder goes into a far country.
The gist is that Israel were the propagators of the gospel to the Gentiles.
When the fruit drew near the householder sent the servants were sent to the husbandmen and he started killing everyone sent to him. Last, was his son and they killed him.
Jews killed the prophets etc and they finally killed the son. God's son was Jesus who would be the Savior of the world who would forgive sins to the uttermost. John 3:16. Hebrews 2:9;11:40.
God got rid of those unbelieving rebels and will let out other husbandmen who will bring forth the fruits of their son.

7. Israel was not faithful to propagate the gospel and this is why the Gentiles came into the picture by being grafted in Romans 9-11.

8. The New Covenant ratified at the Cross paved the way or made it possible for the Gentiles to come into the body of Christ.
However, because of gradual revelation the mystery of the church propagating the gospel like Israe and with Israel wasn't revealed till Acts 10 when Peter was given the vision of the clean and unclean 7 or 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost and made clearer by Paul in his Gentile ministry to the Ephesian church.
Paul didn't leave the Jews till the end of the book of Acts 28.
Paul preached the KoG spiritual aspect of salvation of the soul not the physical KoH reign as Jesus did.

9. So the conclusion is that Matthew 21:33-45 is all about propagating the spiritual KoG rule by Israel and ceased at the rejection before the Cross Matthew 23:37-39.
It was taken away by Christ via the Cross for the church so they would be made jealous by the church to come back to Christ and fulfill their gift and callings of the KoH reign and the land.

10. The KoG spiritual rule of propating the gospel for man's soul was ratified at Calvary and came to fruition 7-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.
Paul made it clearer of the mystery of Christ after Peter because of his concern for his brethren until he realized they had no heart to listen. Jerry Kelso

 

[parousia70]

God got rid of those unbelieving rebels

When and How do you say God did this?