Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[EmSw]

Then Jesus replied.
Have I not chosen you the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil. ( he meant Judas, the son of Simon iscariot, who though one of the twelve was later to betray him)
John 6:70

Are we to believe devils are saved for heaven?

So, was Peter saved? Remember that passage - get behind me Satan?

 

[stuart lawrence]

So, was Peter saved? Remember that passage - get behind me Satan?

Yes Peter was saved.
Unless you actually believe Christ chose satan to be the rock on which his church would be built. Do you?
Satan can put a thought I anyone's head to dispirit another. That is why Jesus replied as he did.
You have to rightly divide the word

 

[EmSw]

Yes Peter was saved.
Unless you actually believe Christ chose satan to be the rock on which his church would be built. Do you?
Satan can put a thought I anyone's head to dispirit another. That is why Jesus replied as he did.
You have to rightly divide the word

Did Satan put a thought in Judas' head?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Then Jesus replied.
Have I not chosen you the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil. ( he meant Judas, the son of Simon iscariot, who though one of the twelve was later to betray him)
John 6:70

Are we to believe devils are saved for heaven?

He spoke that at the end of his ministry after about three years. At the beginning Judas was one of HIS apostles and sent to the lost sheep as a found sheep. He was given power to cast out devils. and satan can't cast out Satan, as Jesus said.

 

[stuart lawrence]

He spoke that at the end of his ministry after about three years. At the beginning Judas was one of HIS apostles and sent to the lost sheep as a found sheep. He was given power to cast out devils. and satan can't cast out Satan, as Jesus said.

Jesus said people would cast out demons in his name, but at the judgement he would tell them he did not know them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said people would cast out demons in his name, but at the judgement he would tell them he did not know them.

Imagine you see a hand and that hand is you without Christ, and if you stand before God he can say I never knew you, because he does not know any in the flesh. But now you put on a white glove which represents being in Christ and putting on Christ. Now God can say I know you he sees Christ image. But if you depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief ( Hebrews 4:12, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc), then you don't have the glove on and are in your old hand again, in the flesh. if you die in that state then the righteousness that you had in Christ is remembered no more and in your sins you die. Then when you stand before God he can still say I never knew you. For he does not know you outside of Christ in the eternal life sense.

Think of no glove and then put on a glove then the glove is taken off.

I see it somewhat like this. But there will also be those who never put the glove on, or who never put Christ on.

But Judas was once a sheep and fell by transgression Acts 1. He was a familiar friend of jesus in whom he once trusted then he betrayed Jesus. To betray means to once have the trust of and go against.

Many times people have just been taught the error of eternal security from their ministers and been tossed about by that and other doctrines and assume that the minister is right. he strings together a few verses to imply that we can never lose eternal life and all believe him. But eternal life is Jesus Christ 1 John 1, and if a man is in him then hardened his heart and hates his brother he no longer has eternal life abiding in him as 1 John says. Eternal life is in Jesus Christ and if jesus is in us we have eternal life, if nit we do not have him, or eternal life. He is the life and eternal life.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said people would cast out demons in his name, but at the judgement he would tell them he did not know them.

Judas was given power to cast out devils. Jesus said Satan cannot cast out satan. Also Jesus said outside of him no man can do anything. If men are in him and they in him , they can do all things, and he gave the apostles power to do. This is because they were all his sheep and in him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Imagine you see a hand and that hand is you without Christ, and if you stand before God he can say I never knew you, because he does not know any in the flesh. But now you put on a white glove which represents being in Christ and putting on Christ. Now God can say I know you he sees Christ image. But if you depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief ( Hebrews 4:12, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc), then you don't have the glove on and are in your old hand again, in the flesh. if you die in that state then the righteousness that you had in Christ is remembered no more and in your sins you die. Then when you stand before God he can still say I never knew you. For he does not know you outside of Christ in the eternal life sense.

Think of no glove and then put on a glove then the glove is taken off.

I see it somewhat like this. But there will also be those who never put the glove on, or who never put Christ on.

But Judas was once a sheep and fell by transgression Acts 1. He was a familiar friend of jesus in whom he once trusted then he betrayed Jesus. To betray means to once have the trust of and go against.

Many times people have just been taught the error of eternal security from their ministers and been tossed about by that and other doctrines and assume that the minister is right. he strings together a few verses to imply that we can never lose eternal life and all believe him. But eternal life is Jesus Christ 1 John 1, and if a man is in him then hardened his heart and hates his brother he no longer has eternal life abiding in him as 1 John says. Eternal life is in Jesus Christ and if jesus is in us we have eternal life, if nit we do not have him, or eternal life. He is the life and eternal life.

Imagine a thief having the righteousness of Christ.
Can you imagine that?
I cant

 

[stuart lawrence]

Judas was given power to cast out devils. Jesus said Satan cannot cast out satan. Also Jesus said outside of him no man can do anything. If men are in him and they in him , they can do all things, and he gave the apostles power to do. This is because they were all his sheep and in him.

At the same time Jesus proclaimed Judas a devil. At the same Time Judas was stealing money from the purse of that which was to support the ministry of Gods son.
You may consider such a person to be in a saved state, I wouldn't

 

[LoveofTruth]

At the same time Jesus proclaimed Judas a devil. At the same Time Judas was stealing money from the purse of that which was to support the ministry of Gods son.
You may consider such a person to be in a saved state, I wouldn't

Jesus di not at the same time proclaim Judas a devil, that is not true, in matthew 10 Jesus said all 12 ( Judas included) were HIS sheep sent to the LOST sheep. Later on in John 6 after about three years ministry and near the end of Jesus ministry Judas was prophesied of being a devil and betraying him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Imagine a thief having the righteousness of Christ.
Can you imagine that?
I cant

He wasn't a thief at the beginning

Imagine a perfect covering Cherub, made by God perfect in all his ways and then he fell and did not abide ( or remain) in the truth and he will be cast into the lake of fire prepared for him after he felll. His name is Lucifer , (Satan, the Devil etc). He was once a beautiful perfect being in the truth and in the Light, then he fell. When he was not fallen he was not the devil. Only after he fell was he headed for the lake of fire

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

This event in Matthew and Mark and other places is describing an event that started before Jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

Evidently, people will go through a lot of trouble to prove that one can lose what God gave him.

What is this so important, I have to wonder. I have a guess, and it's not pretty.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Evidently, people will go through a lot of trouble to prove that one can lose what God gave him.

What is this so important, I have to wonder. I have a guess, and it's not pretty.

this understanding is important for many reasons . Many professing believers have been given false security and told all is well and that they Are in peace with God while they are in sin and unbelief . This is also important because of the many many warnings in scripture that speak to this very thing and warn believers of falling away and ending up in the lake of fire .if it's important enough to have many warnings about it in scripture then we mustvdksinagree and speak of this.

This is important because as the false prophets did in Jeremiah 23 who strengthened the hands of evil men and promised peace to the wicked who were not in the truth, and who do not cause Gods people to turn from wickedness and warn them of the seriousness of thier unbelief and sin, we see similar things told to those who profess God but in world deny him and to brlievers who are in sin.

It is important because there are many doctrines that would turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and that confuse the saints . But we are told that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world .

There are many false doctrines today that are not according to godliness and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

There are other reasons but this is s start

 

[LoveofTruth]

Imagine a thief having the righteousness of Christ.
Can you imagine that?
I cant

Imagine sone teaching today that a believer once saved can never lose it even if he is a thief after and continues in it or if he has an evil heart of unbelief or many other sins. Some teach this horrible doctrine that the unrighteous shall inherit the kingdom of God contrary to scripture 1 Cor 6:9,10 kjv

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus di not at the same time proclaim Judas a devil, that is not true, in matthew 10 Jesus said all 12 ( Judas included) were HIS sheep sent to the LOST sheep. Later on in John 6 after about three years ministry and near the end of Jesus ministry Judas was prophesied of being a devil and betraying him.

We know Judas was one of the twelve disciples but where did Jesus say he was ever saved?
Do you think Jesus didn't know he was a thief?
Or that he would betray him?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Imagine sone teaching today that a believer once saved can never lose it even if he is a thief after and continues in it or if he has an evil heart of unbelief or many other sins. Some teach this horrible doctrine that the unrighteous shall inherit the kingdom of God contrary to scripture 1 Cor 6:9,10 kjv

Well the only righteousness a christian has is faith in Christ.
But as to your criticism of some doctrines now, it then seems strange you believe a thief was in a saved state.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We know Judas was one of the twelve disciples but where did Jesus say he was ever saved?
Do you think Jesus didn't know he was a thief?
Or that he would betray him?

Maybe read this again, from my first post

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well the only righteousness a christian has is faith in Christ.
But as to your criticism of some doctrines now, it then seems strange you believe a thief was in a saved state.

I don't believe a thief was in a saved state. I don't believe Judas was always a thief. Thats your interpretation. At the beginning he was belonging to the Father as the other 11 were John 17 "Thine they were" and the father gave all 12 to Jesus. Jesus called all 12 to him and they were HIS disciples at that time, not the devils Matthew 10 etc, Jesus called them sheep, and to his sheep he said he gives eternal life and they know him.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

this understanding is important for many reasons . Many professing believers have been given false security and told all is well and that they Are in peace with God while they are in sin and unbelief . This is also important because of the many many warnings in scripture that speak to this very thing and warn believers of falling away and ending up in the lake of fire .if it's important enough to have many warnings about it in scripture then we mustvdksinagree and speak of this.

This is important because as the false prophets did in Jeremiah 23 who strengthened the hands of evil men and promised peace to the wicked who were not in the truth, and who do not cause Gods people to turn from wickedness and warn them of the seriousness of thier unbelief and sin, we see similar things told to those who profess God but in world deny him and to brlievers who are in sin.

It is important because there are many doctrines that would turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and that confuse the saints . But we are told that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world .

There are many false doctrines today that are not according to godliness and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

There are other reasons but this is s start

So we keep ourselves saved by our perfect obedience to God's law. Is that it?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Maybe read this again, from my first post

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this

None of the above actually state Judas was ever in a saved state.
And I repeat,. Jesus himself said people would cast out demons in his name but at the day of judgement he would tell them he didn't know them.

So you believe thieves can be in a saved state?
From what you previously wrote I thought you were vehemently against such a belief.
The bible never states Jydas was ever saved