GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 4

Indeed - Hebrews 4 says "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" -- same Gospel in both OT and NT.

And of course "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains from what? From when?

Answer: remains as it was in the time of David in Psalms 95:7. The Sabbath rest remains.

Having said that -- in Hebrews 7 and in Hebrews 10 we have examples of things that "do not remain" from the OT.

 

[BobRyan]

No I don't, I listen to His voice and obey.

He's never told me to keep it. Probably because it was for the Israelite slaves and not for me.

Nope. I keep His royal law of love; James 2:8.

Are you talking about the NEW Covenant?

Jeremiah 31:31-33 "made with the HOUSE of ISRAEL and the house of JUDAH"?

Unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-10 where we are told that Christ is the one that gave us the TEN Commandments.

BTW - even your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to mankind -- including the saints.

It just does not get any easier than this. BOTH sides see that Bible detail.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob we've been through this already. You tried to prove the Sabbath is a moral law because of where it is placed and because God commanded it.

What a concept - eh?

notice 'SIN IS transgression of the LAW' 1 John 3:4.

Your solution that is of the form "ignore bible details if they do not fit your man-made traditions" is not nearly as objective and compelling as you seem to have at first imagined.

And this point about all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God -- is not just a Bible detail to be ignored - rather it is a Bible detail that even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit to.

It just does not get any easier than this.

All of these pro-Sunday groups - affirm it.

BOTH sides can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Please refrain from using strawman arguments. I have no pro-Sunday scholars because I AM NOT PRO SUNDAY. .

Is it your claim that you go around to all the Baptist and Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Community church discussion forums arguing against Sunday as the "Christian Sabbath" ??? Really?

I think that is not at all correct -- and we both know it.
Is it your argument that Christ is at war with the Word of God???

1 John 2:4
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

hint: Jesus did not walk in rebellion against the Commandments of God.

Jesus at Sinai
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Jesus in John 14 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.

Jesus did not claim to be at war with the Words of God.

John 14
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), --

In what unit of moral law is the 5th commandment the "FIRST commandment with a promise"??

Easy answer.

Hint -- it is not the book of Genesis.

Hint2 -- it is not the entire book of Exodus.

Already answered this in our last discussion.

Just not in real life - same thing for the post on this thread you are saying has too many Bible texts to read.
#190

 

[BobRyan]

These arguments fail. Copying and pasting the same old stuff is tedious to read. One verse at a time, one point at a time if we are to continue. Long posts with multiple verses are too difficult to properly address.

1. If you find that one of your ideas survives the one single post
#190
- then show something that would survive it. The Bible itself has 66 books - wayyy larger than a post with a few Bible texts in it. Surely you can tolerate those few texts to see if your doctrine will survive it.

2. Alternately - if you pick one or two texts and make an observation that is not already addressed in that post - great. But if your observation is immediately debunked by another part of that post - you may expect the texts that already debunked it - to be posted again in response.

In other words - we are talking about facts, real doctrine, Bible affirmed doctrine - not just playing the game of "debate for fun" - but rather "debate to shed light".

3. If your argument is that you have the freedom to reject whatever bible details you wish - well you have free will... I never doubted that you could choose that option.

 

[dfw69]

Same as asking -- Was the command "not to take God's name in vain" a noachide commandment or was it added??

Are you serious?

Of course I'm serious... what do I know about your religion?... I ask cause I want to know your position....

Ex 20:11 tells us that the Bible Sabbath commandment originates in Genesis 2:1-3 events/facts/act of God.

But Ex 20:7 does not tell us that same level of detail about not taking God's name in vain. Yet we all know that it is sin to take God's name in vain -- nonetheless.

Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

Who told Noah in Genesis 6 and 7 what an "unclean animal" is? How would the reader of Moses' book of Genesis know what was in Moses' book of Leviticus? (Perhaps that one is pretty obvious)

More accepting the Bible -- less dismissing it please.

I accept the new covenant thank you .. all meats are clean to me

Romans 14:2

 

[AbbaLove]

I accept the new covenant thank you .. all meats are clean to me.

Romans 14:2

Romans 14:3 (NIV)
The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
Romans 14:3 (CJB)
The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him —

Does this reasoning also apply to those Believers in Yeshua/Jesus that choose to attend a Messianic Synagogue on the 7th day of the week as well as those that choose to attend a Christian Church on the 1st day of the week? Has the Lord God accepted both?

Has not the LORD accepted them both OR did the RCC usurp/violate the 4th Commandment, which has likewise been violated to this day with the Protestant Reformation?

Supersessionism (RT) being anti-Jewish for hundreds of years until recently is being revised/redefined (since 1948, 67, 73) by much of Christendom; especially considering the growing number of Messianic (Jew & non-Jew) Congregations.

 

[BobRyan]

Was sabbath keeping a noachide commandment or added?

Same as asking -- Was the command "not to take God's name in vain" a noachide commandment or was it added??

Are you serious?

Ex 20:11 tells us that the Bible Sabbath commandment originates in Genesis 2:1-3 events/facts/act of God.

But Ex 20:7 does not tell us that same level of detail about not taking God's name in vain. Yet we all know that it is sin to take God's name in vain -- nonetheless.

Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

Who told Noah in Genesis 6 and 7 what an "unclean animal" is? How would the reader of Moses' book of Genesis know what was in Moses' book of Leviticus? (Perhaps that one is pretty obvious)

More accepting the Bible -- less dismissing it please.

Of course I'm serious... what do I know about your religion?... I ask cause I want to know your position....

I accept the new covenant thank you .. all meats are clean to me
Romans 14:2

1. The point was about 'details' in Genesis where you don't see the details explained until you get to Leviticus.. but this would not be a problem since Moses wrote both. So then sin is defined, the Law of God defined and of course it was always a "sin" to take God's name in vain. The book of Genesis is not an exhuastive account of every word spoken until Sinai - a point where I think we would all agree.

I think you entirely missed the point of the post. The law of God existed according to Genesis 26 -- even before Sinai. (And of course most pro-sunday scholars also admit to this point when it comes to the TEN Commandments)

2. As for the New Covenant defined in the Bible --> Jeremiah 31:31-33, and the idea that it is talking about permission to eat rat sandwiches.. maybe you can point that out for us.

 

[BukiRob]

Yes, my thoughts are when the Sabbath was changed for whatever reason, it obviously opened a can of worms, a Pandora's box,as we can see historically, and presently.

Sabbath has NEVER changed. It is, was and ALWAYS will be the 7th day

 

[BukiRob]

I never drink wine - always grape juice.

The Passover - (the first Communion service) was part of the feast of unleavened bread and there would be no brewer's yeast - and no bread yeast at all in the house. They were drinking Grape Juice.

So then you are celebrating as did Christ and his disciples when you avoid the fermented beverages at Communion service - the Lord's table.

You have no scriptural basis to assert that they were drinking grape juice. Its this same wrong minded thinking that people attempt to assert that the water wasn't turned into wine it was actually grape juice...all while ignoring the obvious fallacies associated with such a ridiculous assertion. First NO ONE hires a wine steward for grape juice.... Second the palate does NOT become dull with grape juice so no one would ever say what the steward said upon tasting the wine.

If G-d had called you to abstain from wine that is between you and the Father. But to make wild, unfounded assertions that they weren't drinking wine is absurd. They almost certainly WERE drinking wine. You wont find a single Jewish person who is religious wither liberal, conservative, reformed or orthodox who will state that drinking wine at the Passover Seder is a sin

 

[BukiRob]

Do you believe Gentiles should follow noachide 7 laws or the 10 commandments?

Noachide law DOES NOT EXIST. It is a theory that is not scriptural. Show me in scripture where I can find the Noachide law?

I know where I can see the 10 commandments which is a SUBSET of the 613. So since I know of NO believer that would say "On we dont have to follow the 10 because Jesus nailed them to the cross...." That is the hypocrisy that has blinded the church.... In fact, those that are big proponents of the 10 Commandments routinely break the 4th commandment and they will then tell you that well that one doesnt count? HUH? Either they ALL count or NONE of them count....

Be intellectually honest.....

 

[BukiRob]

I don't understand this saying above ...what do you mean?

I believe his laws written in our heart are not obedience to old ordinances but new ones namely love for one another while in the flesh ....but a time will come when we are changed to literally become immortal... perhaps that is when the laws of god are observed perfectly... and the scriptures are fulfilled

Personally IMO I believe you are Jewish from a Christian perspective.. and your love for the law separates us .. the gap between Jews and Gentiles remain when it should not in Christ ... but it is what it is

we love Christ who is our law...but I should not continue.. I just wanted to clarify on your post earlier...peace sister in Christ

LOL Oh, the irony..... You do realize that Yeshua IS the Torah right? So if indeed you love Messiah, and you follow Messiah you will find yourself face to face with the Torah.

I am the way, the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.


If you do a study of the character and attributes of the Torah you will QUICKLY discover that the Torah is called THE WAY. It is called (repeatedly) the TRUTH and it is called LIFE.

John cant possibly make it any clearer when he said IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD.

When John wrote that there was only 1 thing that could have possibly meant THE TORAH. The bible that you have DID NOT EXIST AND AS SUCH JOHN COULD NOT have been talking about anything else.

In first John we are told that if we love him will will KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. We are told that if we say we love him will will walk as he walked.

HOW DID HE WALK????? 100% Torah obedient... YOU CAN NOT SEPARATE Yeshua from the Torah IT IS IMPOSSIBLE

 

[BobRyan]

I was reading again the "Book of Jubilees" and one of the interesting statements is that the Sabbath is kept by angels in heaven. My mind went to the question about how people will be keeping the Sabbath come the millennium and in heaven. Sounds like Sabbath keeping is in the cycle not in the time frame of our sun cycle.

Speaking of the New Heavens and New Earth
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 63:23 In all great empires having a way to coordinate events cross many time zones - and good roads... are essential.

God can do that.

 

[BobRyan]

So since I know of NO believer that would say "Oh we don't have to follow the 10 because Jesus nailed them to the cross...." That is the hypocrisy that has blinded the church.... In fact, those that are big proponents of the 10 Commandments routinely break the 4th commandment and they will then tell you that well that one doesn't count? HUH? Either they ALL count or NONE of them count....

Be intellectually honest.....

These are good points.

What is more the majority of their own pro-sunday scholars affirm the point that all TEN (not just nine) are still binding on all mankind. They merely bend-edit the Sabbath commandment to point to week-day-1

 

[BukiRob]

What's the purpose for teaching Gentiles the 10 commandments to observe? Are you saying Gentiles to be truly saved must enter into covenant by observing the 10 commandments? Some say the 10 is an outline of entire 613 mitzvah ... some say the Torah is only for Jews.. must we become one with the Jews? Was that yeshua mission?

If I sound confused that's cause I am

The entire purpose of the Torah is to TEACH us (Law is a weak translation for Torah a better understanding is INSTRUCTION)
HOW to love G-d and how to love each other.

If its merely left up to us to decide that based on some nebulous "being led by the spirit" that then produces error since TRULY being led by the spirit is what Yeshua said he would do.... LEAD YOU INTO ALL TRUTH. We already know that the Torah is truth therefore if you are truly being led by the spirit the spirit will lead you to the Torah.

The REAL problem is the one that Paul articulates so well in Roman's 8 our CARNAL minds are at war with G-d and it will do everything it can to resist walking in G-ds ways.

 

[dfw69]

Romans 14:3 (NIV)
The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
Romans 14:3 (CJB)
The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him —

Does this reasoning also apply to those Believers in Yeshua/Jesus that choose to attend a Messianic Synagogue on the 7th day of the week as well as those that choose to attend a Christian Church on the 1st day of the week? Has the Lord God accepted both?

Has not the LORD accepted them both OR did the RCC usurp/violate the 4th Commandment, which has likewise been violated to this day with the Protestant Reformation?

Supersessionism (RT) being anti-Jewish for hundreds of years until recently is being revised/redefined (since 1948, 67, 73) by much of Christendom; especially considering the growing number of Messianic (Jew & non-Jew) Congregations.

Yes ...it does apply....

 

[dfw69]

Noachide law DOES NOT EXIST. It is a theory that is not scriptural. Show me in scripture where I can find the Noachide law?

I know where I can see the 10 commandments which is a SUBSET of the 613. So since I know of NO believer that would say "On we dont have to follow the 10 because Jesus nailed them to the cross...." That is the hypocrisy that has blinded the church.... In fact, those that are big proponents of the 10 Commandments routinely break the 4th commandment and they will then tell you that well that one doesnt count? HUH? Either they ALL count or NONE of them count....

Be intellectually honest.....

Thanks for your reply...for the record the 10 no longer apply for the believers

 

[dfw69]

LOL Oh, the irony..... You do realize that Yeshua IS the Torah right? So if indeed you love Messiah, and you follow Messiah you will find yourself face to face with the Torah.

I am the way, the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.


If you do a study of the character and attributes of the Torah you will QUICKLY discover that the Torah is called THE WAY. It is called (repeatedly) the TRUTH and it is called LIFE.

John cant possibly make it any clearer when he said IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD.

When John wrote that there was only 1 thing that could have possibly meant THE TORAH. The bible that you have DID NOT EXIST AND AS SUCH JOHN COULD NOT have been talking about anything else.

In first John we are told that if we love him will will KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. We are told that if we say we love him will will walk as he walked.

HOW DID HE WALK????? 100% Torah obedient... YOU CAN NOT SEPARATE Yeshua from the Torah IT IS IMPOSSIBLE

Yes I believe Jesus is Torah and I also believe he fulfilled Torah for me ...and the laws I obey are his laws ... not to enter into the old covenant but to enter into a new covenant where his righteousness is enough for me ... in that I put my full trust ...

 

[dfw69]

Same as asking -- Was the command "not to take God's name in vain" a noachide commandment or was it added??

Are you serious?

Ex 20:11 tells us that the Bible Sabbath commandment originates in Genesis 2:1-3 events/facts/act of God.

But Ex 20:7 does not tell us that same level of detail about not taking God's name in vain. Yet we all know that it is sin to take God's name in vain -- nonetheless.

Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

Who told Noah in Genesis 6 and 7 what an "unclean animal" is? How would the reader of Moses' book of Genesis know what was in Moses' book of Leviticus? (Perhaps that one is pretty obvious)

More accepting the Bible -- less dismissing it please.



1. The point was about 'details' in Genesis where you don't see the details explained until you get to Leviticus.. but this would not be a problem since Moses wrote both. So then sin is defined, the Law of God defined and of course it was always a "sin" to take God's name in vain. The book of Genesis is not an exhuastive account of every word spoken until Sinai - a point where I think we would all agree.

I think you entirely missed the point of the post. The law of God existed according to Genesis 26 -- even before Sinai. (And of course most pro-sunday scholars also admit to this point when it comes to the TEN Commandments)

2. As for the New Covenant defined in the Bible --> Jeremiah 31:31-33, and the idea that it is talking about permission to eat rat sandwiches.. maybe you can point that out for us.

Never tried rat sandwiches but I'll try anything once ... might taste good

Point being no law is broken in Christ if I do decide to try it

 

[visionary]

Thanks for your reply...for the record the 10 no longer apply for the believers

I wouldn't want to live in a world where the 10 do not apply.