To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I highlighted the portions that I thought were relevant to the discussion...supposedly you addressed them, I just am having problems understanding how you can claim that eternal life with Christ is a reward for only the mature and the immature don't get that same eternal life.

So, are you in agreement with me that this is the true believers and not the tares in the church...it sounds like we are in agreement on this. the passage says entrance as i highlighted and asked and you claimed to have addressed. look at verse 11 notice it says entrance not abundance entrance

I'd say it's more like sitting on a pew playing Ménage à trois with satan. Those who have the old nature as a dead husband are free to marry again.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Again that goes back to inheritance that the remnant of Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans have yet to attain to.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'd say it's more like sitting on a pew playing Ménage à trois with satan. Those who have the old nature as a dead husband are free to marry again.

huh? Not following what you are trying to say...what is like a dead husband and a freedom to remarry

 

[razzelflabben]

Again that goes back to inheritance that the remnant of Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans have yet to attain to.

again, not following you....so, you believe that the entrance into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is a reward for maturity in Christ, this time that maturity is only for the Jews of Paul's day and no one else. But you refuse to explain where you get that only mature believers will go to eternity with Christ.

 

[bcbsr]

All of Revelation 2-3 speaks of being an overcomer and the rewards associated. That's the letter to the churches. It also lists the areas in need of change. Judging from the material I would say that those who are mature will 1. get to be involved in the age after the church age 2. those who don't overcome will have a diminished compacity in eternity (their works will have been burned)

"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4

Once again OSAS wins. While the anti-OSAS legalists often present the strawman argument of "let's assume such and such a person was saved and then lived a lifestyle of sin." It simply doesn't happen. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

So what about those who abandon the faith.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John 3:9

Those pretty much cover all the objections the Anti-OSAS people make.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4

Once again OSAS wins. While the anti-OSAS legalists often present the strawman argument of "let's assume such and such a person was saved and then lived a lifestyle of sin." It simply doesn't happen. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

So what about those who abandon the faith.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John 3:9

Those pretty much cover all the objections the Anti-OSAS people make.

That in no way lessens responsibility to God. Rewards are the new governor of the law of the Spirit just as law was the governor before grace. All is meant to lead to maturity.

What makes you think that the coat of many colors that you are weaving now will be changed? The judgement seat of Christ is before not after entrance.

 

[razzelflabben]

"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4

Once again OSAS wins. While the anti-OSAS legalists often present the strawman argument of "let's assume such and such a person was saved and then lived a lifestyle of sin." It simply doesn't happen. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

So what about those who abandon the faith.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John 3:9

Those pretty much cover all the objections the Anti-OSAS people make.

and yet you refuse to address the passages I presented that show you wrong in your interpretations or conclusions...see, here is the root of my problem and why so many on both sides have a problem with me...I demand to know what God says not what you "believe" "think" or "have been taught"...so unless or until you can address some of the passages that seem to disagree with what you believe in light of the passages that seem to agree with your version you offer nothing of importance to the discussion.

Honestly, I have seen one person willing to address both sides scripturally and that disturbs me to my core. All of scripture is important and should inform our interpretations, right now, on the table is Heb. 6 and II Peter 1:3-15 and remember it involves a good sound exegetical study not just "I think" or "I believe" .

So, the short version here is, I am willing to be wrong, I am willing to change my view if someone can show me how to reconcile all passages using good exegetical rules of interpretation....so prove me wrong, starting with these two passages. Change my mind...it really isn't that hard to do if you are right...seriously, I start every study with the willingness to change my mind and God has changed it many times over so I know He can and will again given good sound hermanutics.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'd say it's more like sitting on a pew playing Ménage à trois with satan. Those who have the old nature as a dead husband are free to marry again.

Everyone who has Christ and the Holy Spirit has been made a new creation. Now some choose not to listen to the Holy Spirit but we change ownership in Christ. Christ bought us for a price. We do not and can not go back to Satan and change ownership back after Christ crucifies us to sin in Him. A man can only die once and one can only serve one master, not two.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Everyone who has Christ and the Holy Spirit has been made a new creation. Now some choose not to listen to the Holy Spirit but we change ownership in Christ. Christ bought us for a price. We do not and can not go back to Satan and change ownership back after Christ crucifies us to sin in Him. A man can only die once and one can only serve one master, not two.

Ménage à trois in a pewbench is duplicity, being in the world and of the world. Duplicity is the biggest enemy that we face. It's being bought off the slaveblock and going back to the same thing like Gomer did in Hosea. In that book God explained His Love.

1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

1 Samuel 7:3
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, "If you return to the LORD with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you and direct your hearts to the LORD and serve Him alone; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines."

Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

James 4:4
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Revelation 3:15-18
'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
.
2 Kings 17:33
They feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile.

Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."

1 Corinthians 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Psalms 12:2
They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.

Psalms 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.

Proverbs 25:26
Like a trampled spring and a polluted well Is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

 

[bcbsr]

and yet you refuse to address the passages I presented that show you wrong in your interpretations or conclusions...see, here is the root of my problem and why so many on both sides have a problem with me...I demand to know what God says not what you "believe" "think" or "have been taught"...so unless or until you can address some of the passages that seem to disagree with what you believe in light of the passages that seem to agree with your version you offer nothing of importance to the discussion.

Honestly, I have seen one person willing to address both sides scripturally and that disturbs me to my core. All of scripture is important and should inform our interpretations, right now, on the table is Heb. 6 and II Peter 1:3-15 and remember it involves a good sound exegetical study not just "I think" or "I believe" .

So you're reading a salvation by works idea into those passages, contrary to the gospel?

2Peter 1:3-15 is not talking about how to be saved but how to be mature. Burden of proof is on you that it's teaching salvation by works.

The Heb 6 passage has been commented upon by Kenneth Wuest of Moody Bible Institute (good enough for you?) and myself. See my study guide on that particular section at http://bcbsr.com/books/heb4.html

 

[bcbsr]

That in no way lessens responsibility to God. Rewards are the new governor of the law of the Spirit just as law was the governor before grace. All is meant to lead to maturity.

The issue is salvation, not rewards for services rendered. Or are you of the viewpoint that salvation is reward on the basis of one's service to God? (Try keeping on topic)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ménage à trois in a pewbench is duplicity, being in the world and of the world. Duplicity is the biggest enemy that we face. It's being bought off the slaveblock and going back to the same thing like Gomer did in Hosea. In that book God explained His Love.

1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

1 Samuel 7:3
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, "If you return to the LORD with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you and direct your hearts to the LORD and serve Him alone; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines."

Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

James 4:4
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Revelation 3:15-18
'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
.
2 Kings 17:33
They feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile.

Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."

1 Corinthians 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Psalms 12:2
They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.

Psalms 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.

Proverbs 25:26
Like a trampled spring and a polluted well Is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

Well you do need to separate the books under the Old Covenant from the ones under the New Coveanant.


Old Covenant

Psalms 12:2
They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.

Psalms 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.

Proverbs 25:26
Like a trampled spring and a polluted well Is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

2 Kings 17:33
They feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile.

1 Samuel 7:3
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, "If you return to the LORD with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you and direct your hearts to the LORD and serve Him alone; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines."


New Covenant

1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

James 4:4
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Revelation 3:15-18
'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."

1 Corinthians 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Now would you mind making your point again please.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The issue is salvation, not rewards for services rendered. Or are you of the viewpoint that salvation is reward on the basis of one's service to God? (Try keeping on topic)

This is the least ontopic all over the board thread I've ever seen. For the last time eternity has nothing to do with rewards!!!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But you go ahead and keep confusing law and grace in the name of ontopic

 

[razzelflabben]

So you're reading a salvation by works idea into those passages, contrary to the gospel?

not at all, where did you get that Idea? Seriously...II Peter says that we are to supplement using what the HS gives us...seems to me that that is the opposite of works salvation or works righteousness in that we are already saved, aka have received the HS who equips us to contribute or supplement that salvation with an all out Love for our Lord and King, you know, "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and exceedingly or strength depending on the translation.

2Peter 1:3-15 is not talking about how to be saved but how to be mature. Burden of proof is on you that it's teaching salvation by works.

I am not questioning that, how could you have missed that in my questions? what I am questioning is why you seem to think that only the mature are given entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. Cause you see, the passage says that if we supplement or contribute as it were, we will be given entrance into the eternal notice the word eternal NOT millennial but eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if maturing is not necessary and we can do whatever we want and still not lose our salvation you need to explain to me why all the passages that talk about the believer (no mention of maturing) is given a heavenly eternity with Christ are somehow wrong when we look at II Peter here in this passage.

The Heb 6 passage has been commented upon by Kenneth Wuest of Moody Bible Institute (good enough for you?) and myself. See my study guide on that particular section at http://bcbsr.com/books/heb4.html

First, NO it is NOT good enough, it's just a man's version and does NOT offer anything of exegetical significance...second as I skimmed over it, it does NOT address why the could not return to repentance if they didn't repent to start out with or IOW's there are two important things that no one, not even that link addresses as best I can find in the article. 1. how can they return to something they never had in the first place and 2. how is not repenting but then coming later and repenting an unforgivable sin since we were all once in that boat?

We have in our church a man that was an atheist for years and he attended church while he was an atheist and joined in...recently he came to Christ and the change is evident. Are you really going to try and convince me that God refused to forgive him because he was part of the church before he came to the point of repentance that he somehow magically was returning to even though he never repented before that moment? Good luck convincing any of us who sees the hand of God on his life of that one.

 

[razzelflabben]

One of the most common mistakes people make when "studying" the word of God is that they find a commentary that holds the same views they do, read it and call it "study". Commentaries are man's view of what God says and nothing more. As such they do NOT constitute study at all but rather merely reading someone elses view of what it says. In order to study the word of God one needs to utilize both study tools and study rules including but not limited to the HS teaching, translational tools, history tools, context, common literary rules especially those for comprehension, the totality of the Bible, etc. NOT a single one of the OSAS ers I have found on these boards is willing to put that time and effort in to come to an understanding of what God wants us to know about the topic. It does take time and effort but if you don't have the time and or don't want to put forth the effort than don't say that you know what God intends and then bash people over the head with your opinions that match the opinions of some other man you might want to quote. It's OKAY to have an opinion, it's OKAY to not want to put in the time and effort but at least don't try to convince people you have when you really have not. Just for the record, I am speaking to people on both sides of the issue here.

 

[bcbsr]

This is the least ontopic all over the board thread I've ever seen. For the last time eternity has nothing to do with rewards!!!

Exactly. The topic is eternal security. It regards salvation, not rewards. So why did you bring up rewards as you said, and I quote, " Rewards are the new governor of the law of the Spirit just as law was the governor before grace." Try to stay on topic.

 

[bcbsr]

Cause you see, the passage says that if we supplement or contribute as it were, we will be given entrance into the eternal notice the word eternal NOT millennial but eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You failed to observed the words "rich welcome". It's contrasting a rich welcome versus a poor one. It is not speaking of salvation being contingent upon one's performance, which, yes, you are alluding to.

As for the Heb 6 apparently you fail to comprehend the explanation given to you. No, the comments both Kenneth Wuest and I made were not in reference to an atheist. We're referring to an apostate. Sorry, I assumed you had some basic reading comprehension skills. Any more strawmen in your pocket?

 

[Bible2+]

~Cassia~ said in post 316:

1 Corinthians 4:5
So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

This refers to the judgment of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1). After the tribulation, at the 2nd coming, the rapture will gather the church together into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and to be judged by him there (Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:3-5). When 1 Corinthians 4:5 says "and then shall every man have praise of God", this could mean that everyone in the church has done at least one good deed in his or her life as a Christian. But one good deed, or even many good deeds, is not enough to assure ultimate salvation.

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

~Cassia~ said in post 316:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Note that this applies only to "them who are the called according to God's purpose" (Romans 8:28), i.e. the elect (Romans 8:33), and only to those elect who "love God" (Romans 8:28), meaning those who continue to obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their free will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12).

Saved people need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and to continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in obedience to him (John 15:10, John 14:21,23), if they do not want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2a) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

The way for believers to expect mercy from God (Jude 1:21b) is for them to repent from their sins and confess them to God (1 Jn. 1:9). Believers cannot expect mercy from God if they commit apostasy (Jude 1:5, Hebrews 6:4-8), or unrepentant sin (Jude 1:7-18,23, Hebrews 10:26-29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

~Cassia~ said in post 316:

It's in bearing fruit that the divine life is expressed thereby glorifying God.

That's right. But it is also in bearing fruit that Christians can avoid ultimately losing their salvation:

John 15:1 ¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:2a refers to truly saved people, who are branches in the vine of Jesus, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

Truly saved people can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not abiding in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or for wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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~Cassia~ said in post 333:

All of Revelation 2-3 speaks of being an overcomer and the rewards associated.

But note that any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), he can ultimately lose his salvation and be cast into the 2nd death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14 and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this, for these verses do not give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the book of life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and the gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

 

[Bible2+]

bcbsr said in post 318:

And what does it say in Romans 8?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says "neither death, nor life", it means that neither saved people's continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless saved people wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

*******

bcbsr said in post 329:

Marriage is a status which a personal decision can't change. So is salvation.

Note that a personal decision to commit suicide can change one's marital status. For the dead are no longer married.

*******

bcbsr said in post 345:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This, like 1 John 3:6, 1 John 5:18, and 3 John 1:11b, means that the initial salvation of people will be accompanied by them repenting from their sins and not continuing in them, at least for a while. What these verses do not mean is that initially saved people lose their free will and become robots, unable to ever choose, sometime subsequent to their initial salvation and repentance, to commit a sin without ever repenting from it. For other verses show that it is possible for initially saved people to do that, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

bcbsr said in post 345:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John [2:19]

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Note that this does not require that apostate believers were never real believers, but can mean that apostate believers were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real believers who have their names written in the book of life can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic-type Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

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bcbsr said in post 350:

So you're reading a salvation by works idea into those passages, contrary to the gospel?

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).