To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[razzelflabben]

That's probably why when Paul taught of rewards he prayed that he would receive all the crowns.

you still haven't answer the question (as best I can tell) about the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as per the passage in II Peter and how that is a reward for making every effort to supplement our faith with goodness, knowledge, self control, endurance, Godliness, brotherly affection, and Love....If entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is a reward, and not the result of our salvation, what is the result of our salvation when we are told that we will spend eternity with Him in heaven....John 3:16 and many others.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

you still haven't answer the question (as best I can tell) about the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as per the passage in II Peter and how that is a reward for making every effort to supplement our faith with goodness, knowledge, self control, endurance, Godliness, brotherly affection, and Love....If entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is a reward, and not the result of our salvation, what is the result of our salvation when we are told that we will spend eternity with Him in heaven....John 3:16 and many others.

That's the main point is that rewards have nothing to do with eternity. Eternity is the one and only offer that God has made. Rewards are from Christ, the only one to whom the NC is made, to those whomever He wishes according to His own standards. Peter is listing the steps to maturity by moving forward from glory to glory as the mirror becomes clearer.

 

[bcbsr]

wait a moment...where I love the analogy, scripture does say they have a right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. It also says that to do so means they are not living in the righteousness of Christ which is what we are called to. Matthew 19:8...iow's because of the hardness of the heart divorce was permitted but came with a price, the price was violating God's will and purpose. I think if you want to make a case for eternal security you need to use a different example then the "free will" of divorce in marriage. The teaching clearly teaches God's will in opposition to our will and how our will allows us to divorce even when God wants us to stay together.

That's where you're mistaken. Jesus said, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." The "hardness of heart issue" is not a basis for remarriage after divorce in Christianity. Under the law of Moses it was simply tolerated. But for Christians it says, "a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive" Rom 7 and "A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives" 1Cor 7 And thus it's till death do you part and not till divorce do you part. Marriage lasts the life of the spouse.

Granted much of the so-called "Christian" community rejects that idea, much as it rejects the gospel.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's the main point is that rewards have nothing to do with eternity. Eternity is the one and only offer that God has made. Rewards are from Christ, the only one to whom the NC is made, to those whomever He wishes according to His own standards. Peter is listing the steps to maturity by moving forward from glory to glory as the mirror becomes clearer.

a maturing that requires us to do something according to II Peter in order for us to entry the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, as I previously asked the OSAS crowd...if eternal life in the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is the result of our salvation and II Peter tells us that that entry requires our maturing by contribution into that salvation, how can you not understand that there is a requirement beyond just saying, "I believe so therefore I am in and nothing can change that"...as per II Peter and no one being able to show other interpretation and as per Heb. 6 and no one offering biblical exegesis to suggest these are not true believers, I don't see any other possible way to understand our security in Christ than that it is required of us to contribute to or as the HCSB version says, supplement. You see, to contribute or supplement does NOT mean we do the work, in fact, this supplementing according to Peter is by the HS's enablement, but it still requires our doing something and not just for "heavenly reward" but for entry into the Kingdom.

We can talk about security if we ever get to the point of seeing what the scripture really says. Because in the totality of the teaching from scripture, there is also a security in our salvation that we need to talk about. The real issue is in what that security means...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

jafyi a plant needs to be mature before being harvested.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's where you're mistaken. Jesus said, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." The "hardness of heart issue" is not a basis for remarriage after divorce in Christianity. Under the law of Moses it was simply tolerated. But for Christians it says, "a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive" Rom 7 and "A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives" 1Cor 7 And thus it's till death do you part and not till divorce do you part. Marriage lasts the life of the spouse.

Granted much of the so-called "Christian" community rejects that idea, much as it rejects the gospel.

wow, you totally mangled what I said....not sure how you could mangle it so bad, but let's try again....what I said is that divorce was still possible as per the text. It is frowned upon and considered sin, but the law does not prevent the divorce, the law can't prevent us from sinning at all, what it does is inform us as to what we should or should not be doing.

so, let's then with that understanding look at I Cor. 7...The chapter starts out with telling us what should and should not happen, not what can't happen. IOW's the free will is still in place which is the key point to the OSAS belief verses what most of the non OSAS ers on these boards are saying and what scripture teaches. IOW's the law forbidding something doesn't stop it from happening because of free will, what it does is tell us there are consequences if we break the law.

In fact, if the law was enough to stop sin, none of us would sin before or after salvation because the law is clear and does not change. Thus, your argument is invalid to making the claim you are trying to make....is that clearer now as to what I am saying, I am trying to not be too wordy....

 

[razzelflabben]

jafyi a plant needs to be mature before being harvested.

so...are you suggesting that only the mature believer is a true believer and going to the eternal Kingdom and the immature believer is not a true believer and thus gets no such "reward" as eternity with Christ? Please show this argument in scripture....if that is not what you are saying you need to explain in light of what II Peter says about maturing in Christ and our eternal Kingdom with Christ.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

so...are you suggesting that only the mature believer is a true believer and going to the eternal Kingdom and the immature believer is not a true believer and thus gets no such "reward" as eternity with Christ? Please show this argument in scripture....if that is not what you are saying you need to explain in light of what II Peter says about maturing in Christ and our eternal Kingdom with Christ.

I don't know. But the angels are waiting for something to harvest the church.

 

[bcbsr]

wow, you totally mangled what I said....not sure how you could mangle it so bad, but let's try again....what I said is that divorce was still possible as per the text. It is frowned upon and considered sin, but the law does not prevent the divorce, the law can't prevent us from sinning at all, what it does is inform us as to what we should or should not be doing.

so, let's then with that understanding look at I Cor. 7...The chapter starts out with telling us what should and should not happen, not what can't happen. IOW's the free will is still in place which is the key point to the OSAS belief verses what most of the non OSAS ers on these boards are saying and what scripture teaches. IOW's the law forbidding something doesn't stop it from happening because of free will, what it does is tell us there are consequences if we break the law.

In fact, if the law was enough to stop sin, none of us would sin before or after salvation because the law is clear and does not change. Thus, your argument is invalid to making the claim you are trying to make....is that clearer now as to what I am saying, I am trying to not be too wordy....

Seems you totally mangled what I said. Marriage is a status which a personal decision can't change. So is salvation.

If a person divorces and gets remarried, that doesn't change the status of their first marriage. Otherwise it would never be the case that he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. For it would not be an adultery if divorced nullified his first marriage.

Thus your argument is invalid.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't know. But the angels are waiting for something to harvest the church.

a church that Satan has planted tares in...but tares are not true believers, the question on the table is whether or not the immature are true believers according to II Peter...

 

[razzelflabben]

Seems you totally mangled what I said. Marriage is a status which a personal decision can't change. So is salvation.

If a person divorces and gets remarried, that doesn't change the status of their first marriage. Otherwise it would never be the case that he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. For it would not be an adultery if divorced nullified his first marriage.

Thus your argument is invalid.

did you just read your own argument? You said that they couldn't divorce, then you said but if they do they are committing adultery....see, I didn't mangle what you said as you claim...you are mangling what scripture is saying to us about the law. Just because it is against the law doesn't mean it is impossible to do...as your own post here testifies that you know this to be true but refuse to accept it in the context of salvation. The question then is why the double standard. If the married person can violate the covenant and the result of that is adultery, what is to stop the saved person from violating the covenant if you want marriage to be your benchmark?

 

[razzelflabben]

Really looking forward to talking about Romans 8 as per our security in Christ being that it was a passage that brought us great comfort when our son died a few years ago.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

a church that Satan has planted tares in...but tares are not true believers, the question on the table is whether or not the immature are true believers according to II Peter...

All of Revelation 2-3 speaks of being an overcomer and the rewards associated. That's the letter to the churches. It also lists the areas in need of change. Judging from the material I would say that those who are mature will 1. get to be involved in the age after the church age 2. those who don't overcome will have a diminished compacity in eternity (their works will have been burned)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Razzelflabbin I hope you can at least see that the subject is not confined to 2 views

 

[bcbsr]

did you just read your own argument? You said that they couldn't divorce, then you said but if they do they are committing adultery....see, I didn't mangle what you said as you claim...you are mangling what scripture is saying to us about the law. Just because it is against the law doesn't mean it is impossible to do...as your own post here testifies that you know this to be true but refuse to accept it in the context of salvation. The question then is why the double standard. If the married person can violate the covenant and the result of that is adultery, what is to stop the saved person from violating the covenant if you want marriage to be your benchmark?

Wow you really have difficulty with basic reading comprehension skills. What you claim I said I didn't actually say. What I said was the REMARRIAGE after divorce is illegitimate. I didn't say one couldn't get divorced. So you'll have to think that through again.

Pr 18:13 He who answers before listening— that is his folly and his shame.​

 

[razzelflabben]

All of Revelation 2-3 speaks of being an overcomer and the rewards associated. That's the letter to the churches. It also lists the areas in need of change. Judging from the material I would say that those who are mature will 1. get to be involved in the age after the church age 2. those who don't overcome will have a diminished compacity in eternity (their works will have been burned)

so your claim then as I understand it is that where II Peter says entry into the eternal Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ it really means the millennium reign and only the mature in Christ will actually inherit eternal life...let's look at strong's and see what the lexicon says about the word translated eternal....the word used means....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
   
   
2. without beginning
   
   
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
   

iow's the word eternal is a correct interpretation and thus a millennial translation would be a violation of sound biblical interpretation....are you still sticking with your view that it is talking about the millennial reign and not the eternal life promised to all believers?

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzelflabbin I hope you can at least see that the subject is not confined to 2 views

lol I have pointed that out many times over and have been told I was wrong...but I still don't know how to reconcile the two passages in question (and some others) with the OSAS theology, any version I have heard about. Which is why I am asking you to explain them based on your version...I am very flexible about what others believe, I am NOT flexible in understanding what God says in light of correct and viable interpretation based on common literary rules of comprehension and study.

 

[razzelflabben]

Wow you really have difficulty with basic reading comprehension skills. What you claim I said I didn't actually say. What I said was the REMARRIAGE after divorce is illegitimate. I didn't say one couldn't get divorced. So you'll have to think that through again.

Pr 18:13 He who answers before listening— that is his folly and his shame.​

read your own sentence this time for comprehension...I quote " Otherwise it would never be the case that he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. " Notice the comprehension clues that tell us that you yourself are saying that divorce carries consequences which means that it is not something that cannot happen but rather that if our hearts remain hard and we go down that road, there are consequences...your own words betray you...look at the comprehension clues in your own words, it's pretty clear you understand the concept I am presenting and accept it to a degree but refuse it in certain situations. See, it isn't me that is not reading for comprehension, it is your words that are your stumbling block here.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

so your claim then as I understand it is that where II Peter says entry into the eternal Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ it really means the millennium reign and only the mature in Christ will actually inherit eternal life...let's look at strong's and see what the lexicon says about the word translated eternal....the word used means....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
   
   
2. without beginning
   
   
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

iow's the word eternal is a correct interpretation and thus a millennial translation would be a violation of sound biblical interpretation....are you still sticking with your view that it is talking about the millennial reign and not the eternal life promised to all believers?

2 Peter 1..
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

Where are you getting any of this from? First off it's written to those who have obtained the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. I could stop there.

The growth is in knowledge pertaining to life and godliness.

The substance is partaking in the divine nature.

The way to do that is thru escaping the corruption of the world of lust of the eye, flesh and the pride of life.

They will never be barren nor unfruitful

Those who lack those things are blind being willing to forget (in the Greek) the initial salvation

Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

Not being willing to be purified

Abundant entrance is not vs no entrance.

 

[razzelflabben]

2 Peter 1..
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

Where are you getting any of this from? First off it's written to those who have obtained the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. I could stop there.

I highlighted the portions that I thought were relevant to the discussion...supposedly you addressed them, I just am having problems understanding how you can claim that eternal life with Christ is a reward for only the mature and the immature don't get that same eternal life.

So, are you in agreement with me that this is the true believers and not the tares in the church...it sounds like we are in agreement on this.

The growth is in knowledge pertaining to life and godliness.

The substance is partaking in the divine nature.

The way to do that is thru escaping the corruption of the world of lust of the eye, flesh and the pride of life.

They will never be barren nor unfruitful

Those who lack those things are blind being willing to forget (in the Greek) the initial salvation

Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

Not being willing to be purified

Abundant entrance is not vs no entrance.

the passage says entrance as i highlighted and asked and you claimed to have addressed. look at verse 11 notice it says entrance not abundance entrance