To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[CodyFaith]

They both seem to have this concept that rewards are gained in purgatory which is what Codyfaith was saying.

I didn't say that. There is no purgatory - I'm not Catholic.

Rewards are merited to a Christian in the afterlife depending on how one lives this life. Salvation already exists for the believer, rewards are given depending on their obedience there after.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I didn't say that. There is no purgatory - I'm not Catholic.

Rewards are merited to a Christian in the afterlife depending on how one lives this life. Salvation already exists for the believer, rewards are given depending on their obedience there after.

Now your saying it's how you live now that accurs rewards but the earlier post said the rewards are gained in the afterlife when we choose to serve . Whether you want to call that purgatory or not that is what you are saying.

Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.

The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.

There is no gospel without eternal security. The gospel is salvation to the believer.

 

[CodyFaith]

Now your saying it's how you live now that accurs rewards but the earlier post said the rewards are gained in the afterlife when we choose to serve . Whether you want to call that purgatory or not that is what you are saying.

I think if you'll read in context you'll see pretty clearly I was talking about in this life. I mean, I did say spread the gospel... you don't spread the gospel in the after life...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think if you'll read in context you'll see pretty clearly I was talking about in this life. I mean, I did say spread the gospel... you don't spread the gospel in the after life...

Then why say rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Him more intensely?

 

[CodyFaith]

Then why say rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Him more intensely?

In this life. Sorry for the confusion, it makes sense in my mind but it might not be properly worded.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

In this life. Sorry for the confusion, it makes sense in my mind but it might not be properly worded.

It does seem to need examining on your part.

 

[GoodFruit]

Ezekiel 33:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.


Yes God knows who will be saved and who wont
King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But we don't, we don't know what any person will decide to do with their lives. Most Christians aren't even Christians, they are living for themselves just as Satan wants them to, they don't care for what God's will is in their life.

 

[Bible2+]

razzelflabben said in post 291:

Before someone tries to go off on some tangent about God supplying the things necessary to accomplish these things, that is something we agree on. What we disagree on is whether or not as in the words above from II Peter whether we need to "make every effort to supplement our faith..." so that we are not "useless and unfruitful..." and "forgotten the cleaning from our past sins..." so that we might "entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." this is the point of contention between the two sides as I see it.

Good point.

For 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives no assurance that initially saved people will choose to give diligence to do all the different things listed there, but shows that it is possible for an initially saved person to wrongly employ his free will to not do any of those things (2 Peter 1:9), meaning that it is possible for him to fail to obtain ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a). For doing all those things is required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, cf. 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

And while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

*******

razzelflabben said in post 293:

. . . we need to supplement our faith if we want to enter the eternal kingdom which is the direct opposite of OSAS teaching.

That's right.

For 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, along with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, i.e. to become utterly lazy, without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

[Bible2+]

~Cassia~ said in post 300:

The Calvinist regards all these negative points as applying to the perdition of false believers . . .

Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

What is your understanding of 1 corinthians 3:15 , those who have there works burnt but will be saved, yet as thru fire?

 

[razzelflabben]

salvation is from the earthly and physical realm to the heavenly and spiritual sphere, plus glorification. however one doesn't immediately go from earthly existance and wake up in eternity. the judgement seat of Christ comes before the great white throne.

Rewards are seen here Matt. 5:20; 7:21-23; 16:24-27; 19:23-30; 24:46-51; 25:11-13, 21, 23, 26-30; Luke 12:42-48; 19:17, 19, 22-27; Rom. 14:10, 12; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-15; 4:5; 9:24-27; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:7-8; Heb. 2:3; 4:1, 9, 11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31, 35-39; 12:16-17, 28-29; and Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; 22:12.

and yet the passage specifies the entering into the "eternal kingdom"....which is what I asked you about as per this passage...we will keep reading and see if you ever answer the question.

Calvanist vs Arminian view are what this thread is confining itself to.

I don't know why you keep talking about "calvanist vs arminian" I simply what to talk about the word of God and what it says not what man says.

They both seem to have this concept that rewards are gained in purgatory which is what Codyfaith was saying.

unless the reward you are speaking of is "entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ". Then you are NOT address the question posed by the passage in question.

Neither of these schools recognizes the reward of the kingdom; nor do either side see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in the above verses as referring to perdition. The Calvinist regards all these negative points as applying to the perdition of false believers; while the Arminian school, believing that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

Without the concept of rewards as given before the millenium the interpretation of these verses falls into either the extreme objectiveness of the Calvinist school or the extreme subjectiveness of the Arminian school.

I still don't get what you are trying to argue...is the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ the reward you are talking about losing or not? and if so, what do you do with all the passages that say the believer will go to "heaven"?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just fyi Cody,
in the context of Scripture Truth, and life ,
this post of yours is simple and clear ---
as verified also by your testimony in other posts ---

We serve Christ more intensely , and not sin, and choose holiness
NOW, TODAY, IN THIS LIFE WE LIVE,

and LATER in heaven we may have whatever rewards YHWH has for us.

"The more one serves" HERE ON EARTH (understood as it cannot be any other way )
the more rewards (YHWH WILLING) they will have in heaven.

Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.

The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

and yet the passage specifies the entering into the "eternal kingdom"....which is what I asked you about as per this passage...we will keep reading and see if you ever answer the question. I don't know why you keep talking about "calvanist vs arminian" I simply what to talk about the word of God and what it says not what man says. unless the reward you are speaking of is "entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ". Then you are NOT address the question posed by the passage in question. I still don't get what you are trying to argue...is the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ the reward you are talking about losing or not? and if so, what do you do with all the passages that say the believer will go to "heaven"?

I would have to ask you then, do you divide all of the verses about heaven, eternity, kingdom etc between the millenium and eternity or do you just clump them all together and call it a day?

 

[razzelflabben]

I would have to ask you then, do you divide all of the verses about heaven, eternity, kingdom etc between the millenium and eternity or do you just clump them all together and call it a day?

HuH? I don't even understand the question...there is eternity and there is the millennium...two different things, even the words tell us they are not the same thing.

 

[Bible2+]

~Cassia~ said in post 310:

What is your understanding of 1 corinthians 3:15 , those who have there works burnt but will be saved, yet as thru fire?

That refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus and the everlasting wisdom of his Word the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus and the everlasting wisdom of his Word the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

This is the source of the reasoning behind purgatory is it not?

Romans 14:12
So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to be sober-minded, as God has apportioned to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:6
And having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1 Corinthians 3:13
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.​

And also the reasoning behind the Judgement seat of Christ

1 Corinthians 4:5
So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.​

It seems to me that one has to be reborn in order to abide in the Lord because otherwise it's impossible to bear fruit. Those who bear no fruit will be cut off. Abiding in Him places one in the position of being a disciple and being a disciple places one in the position of finding themself before the judgement seat of the Lord where each of their works will become manifest.

John 15:4
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:6-8
If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
In this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and so you will become My disciples.​

It's in bearing fruit that the divine life is expressed thereby glorifying God.

John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples;​

 

[Wordkeeper]

As I've already posted several times, every theory/interpretation must agree that the stones are doctrine, built upon the teachings of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ being the chief cornerstone.

That's why this theory falls:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1066-1-corinthians-3-15-saved-through-fire

 

[bcbsr]

Nope. What my question comes down to is, does a Christian still have free will such that he can reject God, or has that freedom been eliminated by being saved?

Once a person out of the free will gets married, do they then have the freedom to divorce? Not according to the Word of God. Much the same thing here. In fact both Eph 5 and Rom 7 use marriage to symbolize the Christian's union with Christ. Are married people robots? Are they without free will? Of course they have free will, but having been saved one is not allowed the right to become unsaved.

And what does it say in Romans 8?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

Time - the future - can't change one's status, which is the same to say "Once Saved Always Saved", and regard the "free choice" issue, notice that neither can anything else in all creation, which included the person themself, seeing as they are part of the creation.

 

[razzelflabben]

Once a person out of the free will gets married, do they then have the freedom to divorce? Not according to the Word of God. Much the same thing here. In fact both Eph 5 and Rom 7 use marriage to symbolize the Christian's union with Christ. Are married people robots? Are they without free will? Of course they have free will, but having been saved one is not allowed the right to become unsaved.

And what does it say in Romans 8?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

Time - the future - can't change one's status, which is the same to say "Once Saved Always Saved", and regard the "free choice" issue, notice that neither can anything else in all creation, which included the person themself, seeing as they are part of the creation.

wait a moment...where I love the analogy, scripture does say they have a right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. It also says that to do so means they are not living in the righteousness of Christ which is what we are called to. Matthew 19:8...iow's because of the hardness of the heart divorce was permitted but came with a price, the price was violating God's will and purpose. I think if you want to make a case for eternal security you need to use a different example then the "free will" of divorce in marriage. The teaching clearly teaches God's will in opposition to our will and how our will allows us to divorce even when God wants us to stay together.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

wait a moment...where I love the analogy, scripture does say they have a right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. It also says that to do so means they are not living in the righteousness of Christ which is what we are called to. Matthew 19:8...iow's because of the hardness of the heart divorce was permitted but came with a price, the price was violating God's will and purpose. I think if you want to make a case for eternal security you need to use a different example then the "free will" of divorce in marriage. The teaching clearly teaches God's will in opposition to our will and how our will allows us to divorce even when God wants us to stay together.

That's probably why when Paul taught of rewards he prayed that he would receive all the crowns.