Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[Steve Petersen]

No he was a real person. Luke said he didn't follow or make up fables. These are accurate accounts of things .

How do you know Luke wrote the gospel that bears his name?

 

[ToBeLoved]

How do you know Luke wrote the gospel that bears his name?

This is really off topic. Since we are talking about the Bible, the thread was written as the Bible is truth. Maybe start a new thread.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you know Luke wrote the gospel that bears his name?

The just shall live by faith, as i do if i use your thinking I could not believe one word of the entire bible

but here is some discussion on it

http://www.mycrandall.ca/courses/ntintro/luke.htm


this should be good proof

The external, direct evidence from second century sources agrees unanimously that Luke wrote the gospel that bears his name. (Remember that Luke is one of the possible authors, inferred from the internal evidence.)

1.2.1. The Muratorian canon (c. 170) states, "Luke, the physician...wrote in his own name what he had been told (ex opinione), though he himself had not seen the Lord in the flesh."

1.2.2. Irenaeus (130-c.200) writes, "Luke the companion of Paul set forth in a book the gospel a preached by him (Paul)" (Adv. Haer. 3.1.1; see also Adv. Haer. 3. 14.1-3).

1.2.3. Tertullian (c. 160-225) attributes the Gospel of Luke to Luke (Adv. Marc. 4.2.1-5).

1.2.4. The Anti-Marcion Prologue (2nd century) says that Luke the physician from Antioch, Syria wrote the gospel known as the Gospel of Luke.

1.2.5. The Monarchian Prologue (2nd or 3rd century) affirms that Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke.

1.2.6. The oldest manuscript of Luke, the Bodmer Papyrus XIV (p75), dated about 175-225, attributes the Gospel of Luke to Luke, using the title "The Gospel according to Luke."

1.3. Taking both the internal and external evidence into account, what do you conclude about the authorship of the Gospel of Luke?

 

[SeventyOne]

We are saved by Grace through faith, Jesus Died on the cross for our sins and was buried and rose again it is Gods work for us and in us that saves us.

Do you consider that we are saved by God's works?. So in some sense we are saved by works, just not ours. And if God works in us to will and to do and make us perfect unto every good work, then we are being saved also as we abide in this work in us.

Show me your faith without God working in you and I will show you my faith by God working in me, as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without Gods Spirit in us is dead also.

That first paragraph doesn't sound like salvation by works at all.

However, when you add to the gospel our works, and then admit to them when you say things like this, "So in some sense we are saved by works, just not ours.", then it turns a gospel grace through faith into the lie of salvation by works.

Thank you again, for yet another overt example.

 

[Basil the Great]

This thread reminds me of a very long thread on an non-C.F. Orthodox message board that I read a few nights ago. The thread dealt with whether or not we should pray for the salvation of Judas (and by implication other deceased who might be unsaved). The bottom line is that we do not know if Judas died knowing Jesus or not? He could have repented at the moment of his death.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That first paragraph doesn't sound like salvation by works at all.

However, when you add to the gospel our works, and then admit to them when you say things like this, "So in some sense we are saved by works, just not ours.", then it turns a gospel grace through faith into the lie of salvation by works.

Thank you again, for yet another overt example.

no, I am saying we are saved by God's works, by His work on the cross through Jesus and his work in us as we have faith, when we believe God and trust him for salvation, we are hungering and thirsting for righteousness and we will be filled, then we are made the righteousness of God in Christ jesus. These things are clearly shown in scripture.

It is not OUR works that save us. But can you say that Gods works are not needed for our salvation? His work on the cross and his work in us at the new birth and His continual work as he works in those who believe and who continue in the faith and who continue in the grace of God.

We find many scriptures about continuing in the faith and grace and life of Christ.

and I didn't add to the gospel OUR works, but God's works. In our old man we can do nothing, in Christ we can do all things. Believers are his workmanship created un Christ Jesus unto good works, which God works in us . If we abide in him by faith we have such work in Christ. But the works don't save us so to speak, they are life manifesting in Christ, ss heat from a fire. God works in us to will and to do. if man says he has faith and does not have God working in him making him perfect unto every good work, then he is not in God and his faith is not real.

Some don't teach faith they teach a kind of fatalism, and make our faith and belief in Christ some kind of fate or God forcing some to be saved regardless and others to be damned regardless of their loving or hating the light. But Jesus says men are condemned when they hate the light John 3. Not predestined to be condemned. What is predestined is the plan of salvation that only those in Christ will be saved and conformed to the image of His son, as they abide in Christ through continual faith. And those who are damned are those who hate the light and believe not. They are condemned already.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This thread reminds me of a very long thread on an non-C.F. Orthodox message board that I read a few nights ago. The thread dealt with whether or not we should pray for the salvation of Judas (and by implication other deceased who might be unsaved). The bottom line is that we do not know if Judas died knowing Jesus or not? He could have repented at the moment of his death.

No Judas was lost John 17 and the other 1 were not lost as jesus said there. Also, Judas went to his own place and was blotted out of the book of the living and no t written with the righteous ( who are in that book), he fell by transgression. Jesus said it was better if he was never born.

 

[SeventyOne]

no, I am saying we are saved by God's works, by His work on the cross through Jesus and his work in us as we have faith, when we believe God and trust him for salvation, we are hungering and thirsting for righteousness and we will be filled, then we are made the righteousness of God in Christ jesus. These things are clearly shown in scripture.

It is not OUR works that save us. But can you say that Gods works are not needed for our salvation? His work on the cross and his work in us at the new birth and His continual work as he works in those who believe and who continue in the faith and who continue in the grace of God.

We find many scriptures about continuing in the faith and grace and life of Christ.

and I didn't add to the gospel OUR works, but God's works. In our old man we can do nothing, in Christ we can do all things. Believers are his workmanship created un Christ Jesus unto good works, which God works in us . If we abide in him by faith we have such work in Christ. But the works don't save us so to speak, they are life manifesting in Christ, ss heat from a fire. God works in us to will and to do. if man says he has faith and does not have God working in him making him perfect unto every good work, then he is not in God and his faith is not real.

Some don't teach faith they teach a kind of fatalism, and make our faith and belief in Christ some kind of fate or God forcing some to be saved regardless and others to be damned regardless of their loving or having the light. But Jesus says men are condemned when they hate the light John 3. Not predestined to be condemned. What is predestined is the plan f salvation that only those in Christ will be saved and conformed to the image of His son, as they abide in Christ through continual faith. And those who are damned are those who hate the light and believe not. They are condemned already.

You are one confused individual. You can't have it both ways. You write things like this basically saying "it's all God", but then in the very next post state that Judas fell by transgression. Whose transgression? His own or is the implication that God transgressed? Of course, we both know you are referencing the works of Judas himself.

I don't know how, or if I even should, keep attempting to point out that this whole thread is self-defeating. On one hand, it's all grace through faith based on what God has done, then suddenly it becomes a warning not to cross some imaginary line of sin ourselves, because at that point grace through faith and the works of God become insufficient. I seriously think you are blind to your own confusion. This thread could be a case study in cognitive dissonance.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Maybe the entire Christian world is confused about what 'salvation' means.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio/what-salvation

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are one confused individual. You can't have it both ways. You write things like this basically saying "it's all God", but then in the very next post state that Judas fell by transgression. Whose transgression? His own or is the implication that God transgressed? Of course, we both know you are referencing the works of Judas himself.

I don't know how, or if I even should, keep attempting to point out that this whole thread is self-defeating. On one hand, it's all grace through faith based on what God has done, then suddenly it becomes a warning not to cross some imaginary line of sin ourselves, because at that point grace through faith and the works of God become insufficient. I seriously think you are blind to your own confusion. This thread could be a case study in cognitive dissonance.

i do not make our belief some kind of fatalism, where God just forces some to be saved and forces others to be damned. I believe the scriptures, that he that believes in God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent to die for our sins and be buried and rise again has life and is saved. But they are also being saved as they continued in the faith and shall be saved as they endure to the end.

In Hebews 3 we see that it is not works that cause men to depart form God ( although sinful works harden the heart and are not in the spirit), it is UNBELIEF. Yes , believers can have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

So it seems that you are the one mistaken and your theology is not right.

If a person has faith in God, then God is able to save them by his grace and by faith they enter into this grace wherein they are saved. This grace we must also continue in as believers were exhorted to do. And also we must continue in the faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So when a person is turned from the faith by sin or false doctrine or the flesh, or by departing from the faith by giving heed to seducing spirits etc. They are in danger. Some have cast off their first faith having damnation, and others depart from the faith etc.

Judas was saved by grace through faith as all the other 11 were, for they all belonged to the father before they even met jesus John 17. And when Jesus called unto him his disciples, they followed, he called all 12 ( Judas included) as his disciples, apostles, ( Judas included). Judas was not the devils at that time, as scripture clearly says. He was one of Jesus disciples. Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said he calls his sheep and they follow. Jesus called all 12 and they followed, because they were his sheep. Jesus also ordained ( chose called) all 12, Judas included.

These things are very simple to see to the unbiased reader, and toothless who have eyes and ears to see and hear.

It is not that Gods work in believers is insufficient when we sin and if we have an evil heart of unbelief. Its just that Christ will dwell in our hearts by faith. Without faith and trust in God we are misguided to trust in our own works and our flesh. This is where sin overcomes us for in the flesh dwelt no good thing. The only way we can DO all things, is in Christ in the new man, from a spiritual walk, as we are led by the Spirit. Then are we the sons of God. if we are led by the flesh and carnal mind in unbelief, we are dead and walk in unbelief..

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are one confused individual. You can't have it both ways. You write things like this basically saying "it's all God", but then in the very next post state that Judas fell by transgression. Whose transgression? His own or is the implication that God transgressed? Of course, we both know you are referencing the works of Judas himself.

I don't know how, or if I even should, keep attempting to point out that this whole thread is self-defeating. On one hand, it's all grace through faith based on what God has done, then suddenly it becomes a warning not to cross some imaginary line of sin ourselves, because at that point grace through faith and the works of God become insufficient. I seriously think you are blind to your own confusion. This thread could be a case study in cognitive dissonance.

I believe you are one confused individual. To make your views seem palatable, you have to ignore many many many scriptures.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Maybe the entire Christian world is confused about what 'salvation' means.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio/what-salvation

I understand what salvation is, but maybe you can share your interpretation of it.

If you want we can also look at the word meanings for saved and salvation. But the scriptures are clear about how we are saved, Read 1 Cor 15:1-5. If you preach any other gospel, you make another gospel. Some add to this gospel many things, like circumcision, water baptism, Sabbath keeping, Mosaic law, foot washing, sacraments etc. We must add nothing to the saving gospel.

and yes when believers believe Gods work for our sin, we are also dead with Christ, buried with him and risen with him. This is where the power of the gospel, is seen. He saves us from our sins, and he is inward in our hearts, the word Jesus connects to Jesus Christ. The word Christ connects to the anointing and spiritual life inward. This is the word or seed in men. This is connected to the new birth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Maybe the entire Christian world is confused about what 'salvation' means.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio/what-salvation

this man is confused on this audio, sadly.

he tries to see salvation something other than it was even in the OT. David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation Psalm 51, and this salvation is connected with creating in him a clean heart and renewing a right spirit within him. It also speaks of God desiring truth in the inward parts and hidden parts.

He is confused. He mixes up the salvation in other instances with the spiritual salvation.

Paul said by which also ye are saved ( present tense). Not shall be saved in a future event. 1 Cor 15:1-5

also Jesus says in John 17, None of them is lost" ( referring to the 11 apostles before the cross/ So if they are not lost then they are saved. This alone and 1 Cor 15 rebukes the speaker on that audio. He is very confused

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are one confused individual. You can't have it both ways. You write things like this basically saying "it's all God", but then in the very next post state that Judas fell by transgression. Whose transgression? His own or is the implication that God transgressed? Of course, we both know you are referencing the works of Judas himself.

I don't know how, or if I even should, keep attempting to point out that this whole thread is self-defeating. On one hand, it's all grace through faith based on what God has done, then suddenly it becomes a warning not to cross some imaginary line of sin ourselves, because at that point grace through faith and the works of God become insufficient. I seriously think you are blind to your own confusion. This thread could be a case study in cognitive dissonance.

I don't say all is of God, I am saying that in Christ when have God working in us by faith. But outside of faith men can do nothing of spiritual values or in the life. God works in those who believe, and Christ is the head of the church who works effectually in every part of the body. But f men depart from this then it is they who depart and forsake God . He will then forsake them and deny them if they do so.

And Christ is not the minister of sin , God forbid. When we sin it is each man that share be accountable for his sin and unbelief. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed, etc. read jJmes.

Judas was once with God and in faith then departed and fell and lost his salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

n one hand, it's all grace through faith based on what God has done, then suddenly it becomes a warning not to cross some imaginary line of sin ourselves, because at that point grace through faith and the works of God become insufficient..

God has done the work for man through Christ dying for our sin and rising again, to appropriate that for the individual, is only done through their belief in the gospel. Then God gives new life and works in them, and then he will continue to work in them as they abide in faith and in him. If they abide not they are cast forth as branches and withered and cast into the fire eventually.

 

[Winter_Rose]

Well, if Judas hadn't betray Jesus, and Jesus didn't died on the cross, goodness know where we would be now. The betrayal was part of God's plan. As the gospels don't show every single little detail, we don't know if Judas had asked God for forgiveness before he committed suicide.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well, if Judas hadn't betray Jesus, and Jesus didn't died on the cross, goodness know where we would be now. The betrayal was part of God's plan. As the gospels don't show every single little detail, we don't know if Judas had asked God for forgiveness before he committed suicide.

Jesus seems to say Judas was lost in John 17, and he went to his own place he fell by transgression in Acts 1 . We read of the report of him and he seemed eternally lost according to scripture. jesus said it was better if he had not been born.

Think also of Lucifer who was perfect in all his ways and was abiding in the truth and walked with God, then he fell and abode not in the turret, and is headed for the lake of fire. God made the lake of fire for the devil and his angels, it was not made origionally. God did not want beings to fall.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is not OUR works that save us. But can you say that Gods works are not needed for our salvation? His work on the cross and his work in us at the new birth and His continual work as he works in those who believe and who continue in the faith and who continue in the grace of God.

We find many scriptures about continuing in the faith and grace and life of Christ.

and I didn't add to the gospel OUR works, but God's works. In our old man we can do nothing, in Christ we can do all things. Believers are his workmanship created un Christ Jesus unto good works, which God works in us . If we abide in him by faith we have such work in Christ. But the works don't save us so to speak, they are life manifesting in Christ, ss heat from a fire. God works in us to will and to do. if man says he has faith and does not have God working in him making him perfect unto every good work, then he is not in God and his faith is not real.

Some don't teach faith they teach a kind of fatalism, and make our faith and belief in Christ some kind of fate or God forcing some to be saved regardless and others to be damned regardless of their loving or hating the light. But Jesus says men are condemned when they hate the light John 3. Not predestined to be condemned. What is predestined is the plan of salvation that only those in Christ will be saved and conformed to the image of His son, as they abide in Christ through continual faith. And those who are damned are those who hate the light and believe not. They are condemned already.

How do we continue in the grace of God?

We are given grace at the point in time we are saved. The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant between each of us individually and Christ. So after Christ has declared us rightoues and given us His righteousness And we have died with Christ to sin, how can we then need to continue in His grace?

He gave us the gift 2000 years ago. We either choose to accept it by faith or we choose not to.

It's an either or. We can only serve one master, flesh/Satan or Christ. We are crucified with Christ to sin and a man can only die once. We were bought for a heavy price.

Matthew 6:24-25
24 No one can serve two masters: Eitherhe will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannotserve both God and money. 25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?

1 Corinthians 6:20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.Therefore glorify God with your body.

1 Corinthians 7:22-23
22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.24Brothers, each one should remain in that situation he was in when God called him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why would anyone pray for the dead?

What did Christ say to the person who wanted to follow Him but go back and bury his father? Christ said let the dead bury the dead.

Judas whatever he did is decided when he died.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do we continue in the grace of God?

We are given grace at the point in time we are saved. The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant between each of us individually and Christ. So after Christ has declared us rightoues and given us His righteousness And we have died with Christ to sin, how can we then need to continue in His grace? .

Just because you don't understand something or the truth shatters your views doesn't mean it is not there .

"...Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace ofGod." (Acts 14:23)

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified"

Hebrews 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?