Hi Ken. I don't think I've heard this interpretation before. I'm curious about the staging ground; where you think it might be, what would be happening while we're staging there and for how long would we be staged, if you don't mind elaborating a bit. Thanks.
Interesting; I have been pondering this a bit too; and this is only speculation, but an infinite space, where everyone and God "is"; yet everyone is infinitely in close proximity with God. This might occur over a great period of infinite joy; or in an instant.
However it happens, it can as it is God's omnipotent will that will make it happen.
Greetings. So, to start I look at the word rapture itself. The Greek is harpazo, and we have essentially, through teachings and Hollywood, recreated a word that can only mean
vertical rapture. If I asked you, and I am not looking for an answer here, "Have you EVER heard the word 'rapture' and NOT thought vertical, what would be your answer?"
I hadn't, until I began to look at how the word was used elsewhere. I mentioned one instance in the previous post, in Acts 8:39, where we read that the Spirit of the Lord "caught away Philip." In this case, Philip was moved from the town of Gaza to the town of Azotus, about 20 miles. So if we stop here, we have a good precedent, that harpazo, which means "to seize, carry off by force, or snatch away," can mean horizontal. Phillip didn't go UP, he went OVER.
One tool we use in study is that in order to get a greater variety of uses of any NT word, you can do a search for that word in the Greek OT (Septuagint) which was translated out of Hebrew in about 300BC. As a quick aside, when you do this you can find the underlying Hebrew word and then see when and where (and how) that word is used as well. Anyway, when you do this with harpazo, there is never one case where it is used for a vertical catching away. In fact, most of the time it is used in ways that wouldn't even make sense, considering how we use the word today. For example, in Leviticus 6:4 we read, "
then it shall be, because he has sinned and is guilty, that he shall restore what he has stolen, or the thing which he has extorted, or what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or the lost thing which he found." Can you find the word we use for rapture here? Don't worry, I couldn't either the first time, it is "has stolen." The KJV translated that as, "violently taken away." That makes a little more sense but still shows us that we have a very narrow definition of harpazo. It CAN mean vertical, but doesn't have to. In fact, when you study the word, you'll find it rarely is used to depict anything being taken unless we are speaking about stealing. For now though, let's look at the NT verses we generally lean on for our rapture doctrine:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
We take this verse above all to be the standard in terms of a vertical rapture, and perhaps it is? But are there other possibilities here? My first question would be, "where are the people going?" If the answer is, "to be with the Lord," then I would follow with, "Where is he going?" Heaven, or when he returns is he setting up his Kingdom? There are so many verses that I can list but will list just a few to make the point, Daniel 2:44, Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 14:9, Amos 9:11, Hosea 1:11, Acts 1:6 and so forth. These all speak of a Kingdom on earth, the messiah on earth. So if the Kingdom is being set up here, and we will be with him when we are "caught up," then this doesn't sound so much like a snatching away to heaven. This sounds more like we go through the tribulation, which I happen to believe by the way and can prove (I think).... and when we see the Lord in the air, we meet him (perhaps) but go to where he is going to rule and reign with him. He isn't "coming in the clouds" where we see him... rapturing us back to heaven... only to return AGAIN and bring us with him. There is one return, he left in the clouds and he returns in the clouds. Just as we saw him go, it is said in Acts, so shall we see him return (Acts 1:11).
But I said "perhaps," is there another interpretation? The Lord appeared to the Israelites as a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. The cloud would hover over them, it even hid them from the Pharaoh at one point. It is POSSIBLE that being "caught up in" is being used idiomatically, rather than literally. The cloud represented His "presence" in the wilderness and during the exodus, and being caught up in it can simply mean, "to be in his presence." So, if he returns and sets up His Kingdom in Jerusalem, being in his presence... being caught up... can still be just as special as what we once believed, but perhaps not quite carry the same meaning we thought it did.
Enoch - Before going on I want to share a thought about Enoch. After all my years of study, I cannot give a satisfactory answer for what happened to this guy.
It should be easy, after all, Hebrews 11:5 says he was "translated" to heaven (It doesn't use the word
heaven, but I think we agree that is a given). But here is the deal, the word for translated isn't harpazo, the word used in 2 Thes. 4:17, it is metatithēmi (G3346) and you probably need to see how that is used the other 4 times it appears in the NT. So Enoch wasn't raptured, at least, the word we use for rapture isn't used with Enoch. He was translated, which seems to mean that he simply passed from death unto life but I don't know where to take it from there. The Hebrew word that is used where harpazo is found in the Greek OT (gazal H1497), is not used in relation to Enoch in the OT, either. In Genesis 5:24 where we see the word "took," it is the word laqach (H3947) which means
to take, but again, that is not the Hebrew word that would be found where the Greek word for rapture appears in the Hebrew OT. So Enoch appears to have been taken, but not raptured.
That takes us to the idea of a staging ground and a second and greater exodus.
Jeremiah 16:14 "Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "
that it shall no more be said, 'The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,' Jeremiah 16:15 but, '
The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.' For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.
Isaiah 11:10 "
And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious."
Isaiah 11:11
It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 11:12
He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 11:13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
Isaiah 11:14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
Isaiah 11:15
The Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River, And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dry-shod.
Isaiah 11:16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.
So we have unfulfilled prophesy tied to the coming of the banner for the nations, the root of Jesse, the gathering of those in the nations, the parting of the sea, His people crossing over dry-shod, AS IT WAS when they came out of Egypt long ago. A second exodus... that involves, seemingly, the same path used before. There are other interesting facets to this understanding. Again, I think I can make the case that we are not taken before the tribulation. Some other aspects, I have been told, are against the rules to be discussed here. This would deal with two-house teaching. I will honor that rule but want to add that we can be a part of Israel (which I believe we are) without being descendants. The mixed multitude, the foreigners or strangers who came out of Egypt with Israel were A. to be treated like native born B. were to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with, and C. were given the law as well and were to be blessed for keeping it and cursed if not... just like Israel. So these people, who had ALSO just lost their first born in the final plague, STILL came out of Egypt and chose to follow the God of Israel. The statement, "to be treated like native born" shows us... they were the first to be grafted in. They became a part of Israel... and all the arguments aside... if we come to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel... we don't replace Israel and make so many of God's promises to Israel of no effect.... but... we are a PART OF Israel and that is one of many reasons why I think we will become part of the second exodus. Even Paul wrote in Eph. 2 that we WERE gentiles in the flesh, WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel, but are NOW... through his blood... "fellow citizens." Even if we are not descendants of the Northern Kingdom of Israel that was scattered into the nations... we are still part of Israel because of the work Jesus has done.
So, I believe that if we are raptured as we have used the word, I don't see it being a vertical thing, I see it being something more like what happened to Phillip. I see it taking us all who belong to God, all of His Israel... to the west side of the Red Sea where it will again part as it once did, in the day when He led them by the hand out of Egypt.
