Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[ToBeLoved]

your argument is flawed if i was in a Catholic room and showing then the errors of their ways they would all be questioning my theology.

Many here are into such theology and some are baptist, reformed and similar views.

But there are many that agree with me that a believer can fall away and close salvation, millions.

and numbers doesn't make right as you should know. All forsook paul in Asia, and yet the Lord stood by him. Jeremiah had only one follower and jesus had only 120 in the upper room that followed on.

and i am considering to lay them out and make another thread about the OT saints salvation and new birth. These things are really very basic I marvel that some don't know them, and that some don't understand that Ot saints were called saints because of salvation

Ok, so your not going to give the verses.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No I believe s scripture shows that he went to his own place and better for him that he was never born and he was blotted out of the book of the living ( or the book of life) and no longer written with the righteous, for only they are in that book. Psalms 69, also referred to in Acts 1 about Judas. Jesus said the 11 were not lost but Judas was lost in John 17

So, do you believe in the inerrancy of scripture? Because according to Jesus Himself, none of who the Father gives Him are lost. None.

So you would need to give up the inerrancy of scripture to continue along the road you are.

Also, if Jesus can loose someone because of their own sin or lack of faith or whatever, than Jesus has and will continue to loose some.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Being born again, being saved, is something unique to the New Testament and is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There were some in the Old Testament upon whom God's Spirit rested, but they were not saved in the sense in which post-Calvary believers are saved until after Christ was resurrected. Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself before Jesus had atoned for sin on the cross and was resurrected. Judas, then, was never saved and could not, therefore, lose his salvation.

Selah.

and OT saints ( notice the word saints) went to Abrahams bosom, when they died in salvation. Not to the torment part of hell. They awaited Christ finished work, but they were still hid with God in Christ. If any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his. They had to have the Spirit of Christ or they were not saved. Abraham had the seed or spirit of Christ as we read, and so did others

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:16,29)

and

speaking of OT prophets

"11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11)

and

"28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:28,29)

 

[Radrook]

When prophecy is shown, it shows that God knows all things ahead of time, and we all agree on that, God is infinitely knowledgeable about all. But that does not mean that Judas was not once saved then lost it. God knew he would fall in time. In John the stories are after three years of ministry already and near the end of jesus death and resurrection. In mMatthew we see the beginning of Judas ministry.

If we think of Gods knowing he also knew that Lucifer would fall and do so much damage and end up in the lake of fire. Yes at one time Lucifer was perfect in all his was and a beautiful angelic being, a covering cherub. But God still made him perfect at the start and worked with him and he was perfect in ALL his ways, until iniquity was found in him.

So because God knew that Lucifer would fall does not mean that he wanted that and Lucifer still walked with God at one time and was in the Light. Therefore God could call Judas as a saint and saved man at the beginning and in whom Christ trusted and he was a familiar friend of jesus and then he betrayed that trust and love. The word betrayed means to go against the trust you once had. This can only happen if he once had that trust. "My familiar friend in whom I once trusted hath lifted up his heel against me"

Absolutely true. God does not WANT any of his creatures to sin but prefers that they behave righteously instead,.

New International Version
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 ►




Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[ToBeLoved]

No this is not true at all, and this is basic belief you must learn about, salvation has always been the same from the beginning. All are born again by the word of God David said "thy word hath quickened me", all believers are quicken by the word of God. The word is quick and powerful and this is the seed that is sown in the heart, which when a person receives it they are saved. Jesus said except a man be born again they cannot see the kingdom. But he told his disciples "your eyes see" but to those without ( without the kingdom) things are shown in parables, lest they should see and hear and be converted and healed.


1 Samuel 2:1
And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation."

Psalm 18:46
The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

"
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life..." (present tense "Hath" before the cross)

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (hath, present tense, and "Is: passed from death to life, present tense.

So what are your verses for this quickening. Because there are 40 - 50 verses that say 'By faith' one is saved, not of themselves.

All the verses above are about basic salvation. None of them show the 'quickening' you speak of. It is better to use verses that specifically pertain to what you are saying and not general verses on the subject.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not sure we have the authority to answer this question. We can only know of our own salvation through Jesus. It's not our job to say who will and who won't go to heaven. It's our job to introduce people to Jesus.

Jesus already answered that here

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17:12)

notice this is before the cross and the 11 were saved, and Judas was lost according to Jesus and he was blotted out of the book of the living and no longer written with the righteous. he was once in that book then blotted out compare Acts 1 psalms verses with Psalms 69

 

[ToBeLoved]

and OT saints ( notice the word saints) went to Abrahams bosom, when they died in salvation. Not to the torment part of hell. They awaited Christ finished work, but they were still hid with God in Christ. If any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his. They had to have the Spirit of Christ or they were not saved. Abraham had the seed or spirit of Christ as we read, and so did others

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:16,29)

and

speaking of OT prophets

"11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11)

and

"28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:28,29)

The people under the Old Covenant are not held to New Covenant standards and visa-versa.

The children of Abraham extended out to all who walk in faith. It was not limited to the Old Covenant.

I'm not sure you are distinguishing covenants and what each covenant meant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

and OT saints ( notice the word saints) went to Abrahams bosom, when they died in salvation. Not to the torment part of hell. They awaited Christ finished work, but they were still hid with God in Christ. If any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his. They had to have the Spirit of Christ or they were not saved. Abraham had the seed or spirit of Christ as we read, and so did others

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:16,29)

It is not that Abraham has the Spirit of Christ, it is that Abraham had faith. All of the seed of Abraham are those who have faith and faith is the criteria of the New Covenant. It is NOT that Abraham had the Spirit of Christ. No one had the Spirit of Christ until after Christ's death.

Hebrews 11:7-9
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the promised land as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Hebrews 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son

James 2:22
You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

Genesis 15:6
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Abraham was imputed righteousness by faith. So, Abraham is the father of all those who have faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus already answered that here

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17:12)

notice this is before the cross and the 11 were saved, and Judas was lost according to Jesus and he was blotted out of the book of the living and no longer written with the righteous. he was once in that book then blotted out compare Acts 1 psalms verses with Psalms 69

He said none of them have been lost. He did not say that they have been saved. You are reading your own understanding into it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do like your chosen username and the line you've chosen below it.l

Hello Daryl, and God bless. I do love the truth and Christ is the truth , The anointing teaches all things and is truth. I seek, as we all should, to walk in the anointing and to be taught all things by the anointing, which is the word of God 1 John 2:27.

It is my sincere hope that, if you do love Truth, you will have realized and internalized the truth that we should not think we know anything (1 Corinthians 8:2), and thus your spirit remains teachable.l

Yes I am teachable, but I listen for the anointing that teaches all things, I have no need that any man teach me, I listen for the new man in Christ as the head and as he works effectually in the measure of every part. I listen carefully for the inner witness of Christ in me. But as i listen to your words I also listen for that witness and while I see some good qualities in your behaviour and words, I see great error in understanding and you speak what you know from men and natural learning and not from the truth in many parts as I hope to show.

Please bear with me, I mean no insult or harm, but you are in great error. The Judas argument of men being saved and falling away and losing salvation is only one of a massive amount of truths from scripture i can show. Really it would take 800 pages to go trough the massive witness of these things from scripture. and inner witness of Christ in me. And while we we know nothing of ourselves, and if any man think he does he knows nothing as he ought to. But we have an unction from the holy one we know all things. The anointing teaches us all things and we need to grow in this and the revelation of God.

Would you say that your spirit is teachable? To be fair, if you were to ask me the same question, I would say that I certainly hope so.

Yes I am teachable by the anointing that teaches all things, I have no need that any man should teach me nor does any saint ( 1 John 2:27) and if you speak from the leading of the Spirit in the anointing it will bear witness with my spirit and with the holy scriptures. I find that many do not listen for this leading but are often drawn away after man and natural learning and tossed about by every wind of doctrine and denominational man made forms and doctrines. but until i show this it is all my words , so bear with me as i seek to show this by the grace of God.

With due respect, I do feel that your understanding is not correct and that the verses you quote, along with others I will provide, do not in fact support your position.

here you show that you are not in the anointing and you use the words "respect", consider your correction here and before you scoff at it pause,

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2;1,9 KJV) and yes I know the context is referring to the rich and poor in the gatherings and mens respect of persons. But the respect of persons takes on many forms and is forbidden in scripture. Honour and esteem are better words to use towards each other. Respect means favouritism and to be partial.

Sorry, no. At the time Jesus spoke the words in John 17:6, Judas had already left to betray him (back in John 13:26-27).

You are in error here, lets look at the section,

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." ( John 17:6)

Here we see that the men that were given to Jesus were also called unto him in matthew 10 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples..." This is when they were given to him. They were called out out of the world. So jesus is referring to the disciples all of them, Judas included as he said further in John 17,

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

Notice here that Jesus refers to those that were given to him, which in the context include Judas. Jesus says none of them is lost (among those that were given to him) except Judas. Jesus also says while ehe was ( past tense with them) he is not referring to the present reality in that verse. This shows that of all the 12 that were given to Jesus in the past and only Judas fell by transgression and was lost in the end.
This shows that the 12 apostles that Jesus called to him, were given to him by the Father and he said "thine they were" (past tense) this shows that the Father gave them to Jesus at the beginning of his ministry. This shows that even before they were given to jesus they belonged to the father. And of all those that were given to Jesus among the 12 only one was lost having once belonged to the father. This is so clear to the unbiased reader.

Also, please complete the verse: "...and they have kept Your word."

Still referring to the past event when all the apostles believed his word and were kept, Judas also believed for a time. But among those given Judas fell away. This happened in time. When Judas was going out and casting out devils and believing the word of the Lord and when they all came back and jesus told them not to rejoice that the devils are subject to them but that their names are written in the lambs book of life. Judas at that time would have kept his word and been as successful as the others. jesus even said to the twelve that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. here were promises to all 12 Judas included at one time, until he betrayed jesus and fell by transgression. Judas at one time had part of the ministry and apostleship, he was a sent one of God and so to be such he would have had to believe the word of Jesus and kept the word.

Judas did not keep the Father's word.

Yes he did when he was called of jesus as one of HIS disciples. Notice Judas was not one of the devils disciples in mMatthew 10. He belonged to jesus and of his household as the text clearly says. At this time he would have had to keep his word in order to be sent and given power to cast out devils. Satan cannot cast out satan, and jesus would not send a devil to cast out devils, this would go against his won teaching.

We could also see John 17 referring to the apostles that were saved then as well and they have kept the word. But the context extends even further back to when jesus was with them in the world since the father first gave them to him.

Yes, Judas was one of Jesus's twelve disciples, but he was not one of the chosen.

This is your made up interpretation and surmising, not according to scripture ,

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve..." (John 6:70) and the 12 that were originally called and chosen were HIS disciples. "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,"( Matthew 10:1)

also we read

"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," (Mark 3:14)

ordained here means- to appoint then or choose them to do a work.

again scripture is clear and your interpretation is strained and not true. Judas was called and chosen to go forth and preach and given power and belonged to the father before given to jesus and one of jesus disciples. But as he went away from God this call and chosen aspect changed.

Jesus had already known from the beginning who was going to betray him -- and called Judas anyway to fulfill Scripture. John 6:64, John 17:12, and John 13:18.

You misunderstand prophecy. God knowing all things doesn't mean he made men sin or go against him etc. God can see a being saved and walking with him and then see how they fall away and depart from him and still during the times when they are saved God can extend every grace and love to them, even knowing they will turn away.

We see this clearly with Lucifer. He was perfect in all his way and walked with God a covering Cherub, blessed and holy. Then he went away and fell and will end up in the lake of fire. God knew from the beginning that Lucifer would fall. But that doesn't stop God from loving him while he was with him and walking close to Lucifer before he fell. Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, yet in time God knew he would fall. Judas is similar to this and so is every saint who walks with God then departs and ends up in the lake of fire.

This is true but not relevant. The sons of the Pharisees, some itinerant Jewish exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva were also casting out evil spirits, and they were not saved. Matthew 12:27 and Acts 19:13-16.

This is false. The sons of Pharisees and false prophets and false men are not given power by Jesus to cast out devils. All the ones given such power by Jesus were also successful including Judas. He partook of the ministry and by the power of God. he was not a fake minister as some are. And yes even true ministers can cast out devils etc and end up in hell. They may try to say to God did not we cast out devils ( as Judas could) but if they die in their sin and unbelief and in the flesh then God never knew them. God only knows believers IN CHRIST , when they put of Christ. If they don't have Christ and are not covered with his righteousness God does not know them. God only knows those in Christ. Think of it this way, imagine a man puts a white sheet over his body and that sheet is Christ and his righteousness, and God knows him in that. But now he puts off that sheet and is in his flesh, God does not know him in that, and God never knew him in the flesh.

True but not relevant. What is relevant here is that Judas never believed in Jesus (and thus was never saved -- John 6:64 again).

You just say Judas never believed in jesus, but he did for sure. Or jesus wouldn't have said he was HIS disciple and sent him out to the lost sheep as a found sheep, and given him power to cast out devils etc.

The name of Jesus has power, and, as in point #3, even those who are not saved may use it. Doing miracles does not in any way indicate that one is saved. Matthew 7:22.

What, are you saying that even the lost can use the name of jesus and have power? The false men tried that in Acts and the devils jumped all over them. they were not in the NAME of jesus Christ and his life and so they were not known.

And you do know that there were/are false apostles, no? 2 Corinthians 11:13.

Judas wasn't a false apostle at the first. Jesus called him and sent him. Unless you are trying to say Jesus was mistaken. Also we read in Acts that Judas was a true apostle and he fell

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." ( Acts 1:25)

The scriptures correct you here. Also we read

"Now the names of the twelve apostles are...and Judas Iscariot,..."( Matthew 10:2-4)

I believe the scriptural witness not your surmising about Judas being called as a false apostle and devil from the beginning. scripture is clear here

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,..."

Clearly all 12 were HIS and not the devils. But some twist and wrest the scriptures in tis place sadly.

No, he did not. in Matthew 10:16, Jesus told his apostles that they were being sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves, not that they were his sheep. This is a totally different context, with a totally different meaning.

No it is not, and i see you are trying to avoid such a clear correction and evidence. lets look at it,

' But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ( Matthew 10:6)

Here jesus shows that there are LOST sheep he is sending them to. He would not send a lost sheep to help the lost sheep, a blind man cannot lead another blind man as jesus said. Then he said

"16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16)

we know that no man is a literal sheep. But clearly to send his apostles ( all 12) as sheep to the lost sheep shows that they are found sheep and jesus said his sheep ear his voice and they follow him. The 12 followed jesus and were his sheep. This is so clear you are simply trying to avoid the consequence of this verse to avoid the reality of judas being a found sheep sent to the lost sheep.

We know that the apostles were saved and had eyes to see the kingdom as Jesus said to them. And except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom, but Jesus said that their eyes see.

Not necessarily. Jesus said to "...let your peace come upon it...", not the peace of God. You're making an assumption that Judas had the peace of God, but that is not what the verse says.

The peace they had was the peace of God, the houses they found "worthy" their peace would come upon it. No man can have peace with God except through their relationship with God and if they are in that peace. You twist this to try and fit your view. By receiving the apostles they were in fact receiving jesus and his word and the message and power he ave the apostles

Sorry, no. Jesus was at this point speaking of the future of the apostles; none of what he described is documented as happening on this occasion of their being sent out.

That is your assumption, he said it to them as scripture shows, and it applied to them and to all who are sent forth of all times.

Yes, the holy spirit would indeed be speaking through the apostles when these foretold events happened, but Judas was long dead by then.

False Jesus was speaking to them directly and it applied to them. This is just your wrong theology that tries to fit it into your understanding. All OT saints were saved and had the new birth. Jesus said to the 12

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:...For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10:16,20) . If you admit that jesus is speaking to the twelve as he was this messes up your theology. But let it be messed up, follow truth not man made theology. These truths apply to all who are sent of all times.

Judas never believed in Jesus, so he was never a member of his household. John 6:64 once again. Jesus was speaking of those who were in fact of his household.

this is just your made up stuff and trying again hard to avoid the context and who he is speaking to. As I showed he spoke these things to the 12 apostles and these truths extend to all who are sent of all time. Judas and the 11 were of his household because they were the found sheep sent to the lost sheep and his disciples.

Sorry, no. This is human reasoning. I've already shown that Jesus foreknew who would betray him, so Judas's betrayal came as no surprise to him.

I already showed you that to betray someone you have to first have their trust. Judas was in the ministry and called and sent by Jesus as an apostle. To foreknow something doesn't mean God made it happen or made any sin. We already looked at Lucifer who was perfect in all his ways and walked with God in relationship then fell and will end up in the lake of fire.

Now, did Jesus treat Judas as a trusted friend? Absolutely.

Does Jesus trust a man if he was always a devil as you say, and call him a familiar friend? No. Judas was loved and an apostle sent one who was ordained by Jesus. Jesus doesn't make mistakes.

Sorry, no. Acts 1:20 refers specifically to Psalms 69:25 and Psalms 109:8, and to those verses only. Psalms 69:28 is specifically not mentioned.

wrong no writer quotes verses out of context, the verses about being blotted out are in the next few verses in context. You error here greatly.

"25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

the same ones spoken of in context. You need to reconsider your words here.

Judas was doomed to destruction to fulfill Scripture (John 17:12). It was by his act of transgression, foreknown by Jesus, that he fell. And there is nothing in Acts 1:25 that indicates he had any choice in the transgression; it simply states the act.

All men have a choice to choose life or death and to believe or not. No man is a robot as some false teachers imply with their erroneous doctrines. Judas was shown in prophecy to fall. But Lucifer also was seen to fall by God. This does not delete the fact that Judas was once a saved man and that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways and a covering cherub blessed at one time. You again misunderstand prophecy .

and Judas by transgression fell. Fell from what? how can he fall if he was always fallen as some wrongly teach? He fell from God and the ministry and calling of God and went to his own place, damned lost as jesus said. Better to never have been born that to betray the Son of God. Espescially after he had soo many blessings and was called and chosen and given power and had the Spirit of the father speaking in him at one time. We could also say that Lucifer had such things in a different way as a perfect being created by God.

In conclusion, to speak frankly, every single point originally made has been shown to be either incorrect or irrelevant. You appear to be trying to make the verses you quoted fit what you desire to be true, but they cannot be made to do so.

In conclusion I have rebuked and corrected you on almost every point, I could correct every point you made but some overall and are similar. You desire to be true but are found in falsehood and following the teachings and bias of man made doctrines.

It is my hope that you will ask for the wisdom of God (James 1:5) and will deeply and prayerfully consider what I have submitted here before God with an open mind and heart.

It is my hope that you will repent of your erroneous teachings and ask for wisdom from God and prayerfully consider what I wrote with an open heart and mind

 

[LoveofTruth]

He said none of them have been lost. He did not say that they have been saved. You are reading your own understanding into it.

lol if you are not lost what are you?

Jesus said that the apostles eyes se the things of the kingdom and except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. They saw

 

[aiki]

No this is not true at all, and this is basic belief you must learn about, salvation has always been the same from the beginning. All are born again by the word of God David said "thy word hath quickened me", all believers are quicken by the word of God.

Oh? What makes you think he was indicating the Bible had saving power in Psalm 119:50? Why would you think David is writing of spiritual regeneration when he wrote "your word quickened me"? How would he have any idea at all of such a thing?

Doesn't the Holy Spirit "quicken," or give life to, believers? This is what I read in Scripture:

Romans 8:10-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Why would we need the Holy Spirit to quicken us if the Scripture quickens us?

The word is quick and powerful

Um, this reference you make here is not to Scripture but to Christ himself:

Hebrews 4:12-14 (NKJV)
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

The writer of Hebrews says the Word of God is living and powerful in verse 12 but he is not writing about the Bible (an inanimate object) but about our High Priest, Jesus Christ the Righteous, who the writer continues to describe in verses 13 and 14.

The word is quick and powerful and this is the seed that is sown in the heart, which when a person receives it they are saved.

Uh, I think it is the truth communicated through the words of Scripture that bring people to a saving faith in Christ; it is not the Scripture itself that saves. The apostle John is really clear about this:

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Eternal life is not found in words but in the Person they reveal.

Jesus said except a man be born again they cannot see the kingdom. But he told his disciples "your eyes see"

Are you saying the disciples "seeing" is the same as being born again? How does that work, exactly?

and OT saints ( notice the word saints) went to Abrahams bosom, when they died in salvation. Not to the torment part of hell.

Scripture references, please.

They awaited Christ finished work, but they were still hid with God in Christ.

What does this have to do with Judas who did not die a saint?

They had to have the Spirit of Christ or they were not saved. Abraham had the seed or spirit of Christ as we read, and so did others

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I don't think you've understood what Paul wrote in the verses you cited from Galatians. Paul did not mean "spirit of Christ" when he wrote "seed." What does "Abraham and his seed" refer to? Does Paul mean Abraham and his spirit? Obviously not. "Seed" is another way of saying "offspring" or "descendants." As Scripture indicates, Christ is the promised seed of Abraham, or the promised descendant of Abraham. And all those who are Christ's by faith in him as their Saviour and submission to him as Lord are, therefore, spiritual descendants of Abraham. It seems pretty clear, then, that Paul isn't saying Abraham had the spirit of Christ in the verses from Galatians 3 that you quoted.

Now, Scripture does tell us that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, was upon certain Old Testament followers of Jehovah. But is this the same as being saved? I don't see how since being saved is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Their being saved could not have happened until after Christ had died and rose again. But they would have been OT saints eagerly awaiting the prophesied salvation of the Messiah, not devilish betrayers of Christ who suicided themselves in shame as Judas did.

Selah.

 

[Standing Up]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.-snip-

Do you believe Judas was born again prior to Christ's resurrection? If so, where is that?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You just say Judas never believed in jesus, but he did for sure. Or jesus wouldn't have said he was HIS disciple and sent him out to the lost sheep as a found sheep, and given him power to cast out devils etc.

When did Jesus send them out for lost sheep before His death?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Oh? What makes you think he was indicating the Bible had saving power in Psalm 119:50? Why would you think David is writing of spiritual regeneration when he wrote "your word quickened me"? How would he have any idea at all of such a thing?

Doesn't the Holy Spirit "quicken," or give life to, believers? This is what I read in Scripture:

I am not saying the bible has the saving power, But scripture conveys the word of truth and the word of God Jesus said that the word he spoke they are spirit and they are life, He said all who hear his word and believe have everlasting life and are passed into life ( present tense0 when he spoke it.

Peter says that we are born again by the word of God which is the seed.

"23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:23 KJV)

"18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures....and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:18,21)

the word is the seed sown in the hearts of all men as the parable of the sower shows and this word when received gives life . This word is Jesus in the spirit the spirit of Christ the anointing.

Um, this reference you make here is not to Scripture but to Christ himself:

Hebrews 4:12-14 (NKJV)
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

This shows that the word of God is the spirit of Christ in men. This word is in the heart. And so when David says thy word hath quickened me he is saying this word inwardly saves and makes alive. He asked God to create in him a clean heart and said that God desires truth in the inward part and in the hidden part he shall make me to know wisdom.

The writer of Hebrews says the Word of God is living and powerful in verse 12 but he is not writing about the Bible (an inanimate object)

I never said it was about the bible. What I am speaking of is the mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory and the Light of Christ that eightieth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9

but about our High Priest, Jesus Christ the Righteous, who the writer continues to describe in verses 13 and 14.

Uh, I think it is the truth communicated through the words of Scripture that bring people to a saving faith in Christ; it is not the Scripture itself that saves. The apostle John is really clear about this:

I never said it is the scripture. before scripture was given men could still be saved. Abel was born again as 1 John 3 shows and this is by the seed ( the word, Christ) in him.

Are you saying the disciples "seeing" is the same as being born again? How does that work, exactly?

I am saying that when they are born again they can see the kingdom, because they have new eyes spiritual eyes. The eyes of their understanding being enlightened and as i showed,

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3 KJV)

with

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." (Matthew 13:16 KJV)

we need to just believe scripture not fight against it and hold onto man made denominational doctrines. So many do not see these things and are all messed up about salvation and the new birth. It is amazing when i see how confused so many are about these things.

Scripture references, please.

Luke 16:22
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

I don't think you've understood what Paul wrote in the verses you cited from Galatians. Paul did not mean "spirit of Christ" when he wrote "seed." What does "Abraham and his seed" refer to? Does Paul mean Abraham and his spirit? Obviously not. "Seed" is another way of saying "offspring" or "descendants." As Scripture indicates, Christ is the promised seed of Abraham, or the promised descendant of Abraham. And all those who are Christ's by faith in him as their Saviour and submission to him as Lord are, therefore, spiritual descendants of Abraham. It seems pretty clear, then, that Paul isn't saying Abraham had the spirit of Christ in the verses from Galatians 3 that you quoted.

I disagree with you strongly, as we see here,

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." ( Galatians 3:16,29)

Here we see that Paul is not talking about the physical descendants of men, for then he would have said "seeds" as of many. But he is speaking of the one seed, which is Christ. The seed of Abraham is Christ in him. and that seed is our seed also. This expression "seed" is used all over scripture. Jesus sues it in the parable of the sower and the seed and John uses it in 1 John 3:9, that whosever is born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him. This seed is how we are born again as Peter said in 1 Peter 1;23 as i quoted. This seed is the word and life. paul says

"...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:9 KJV)
If Abraham did not have the spirit of Christ he would be none of his.

OT saints had the spirit of Christ as we read,

"
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which wasin them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

and

"28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."( Galatians 4:28,29 KJV)

Now, Scripture does tell us that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, was upon certain Old Testament followers of Jehovah. But is this the same as being saved? I don't see how since being saved is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Their being saved could not have happened until after Christ had died and rose again. But they would have been OT saints eagerly awaiting the prophesied salvation of the Messiah, not devilish betrayers of Christ who suicided themselves in shame as Judas did.

They were all saved but awaiting Christ work to finish. They were hid with God in Christ. also we do not read of just the Spirit of Christ . The trinity doctrine comes in place here. We read of the Spirit of the father Matthew 10 in men, and the Spirit of His Son in our hearts by faith (the Spirit of Christ) and of the Holy Ghost baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost. There is a distinction of each. John says believers have BOTH the Father and the SON. .

 

[LoveofTruth]

When did Jesus send them out for lost sheep before His death?

Matthew 10:6

"6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you believe Judas was born again prior to Christ's resurrection? If so, where is that?

Yes I do. He is said to have belonged to the father John 17 before he was even given to jesus and jesus called HIS 12 apostles , disciples, to him, and sent them forth as sheep. His sheep hear his vice he said and they follow him and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas also was among the apostles who Jesus said "Your eyes see" and we know that except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. But Jesus said their eyes see.

etc etc etc ( there is so much to write here it would take hours). I have covered some of this already in other post here

 

[LoveofTruth]

So, do you believe in the inerrancy of scripture? Because according to Jesus Himself, none of who the Father gives Him are lost. None.

So you would need to give up the inerrancy of scripture to continue along the road you are.

Also, if Jesus can loose someone because of their own sin or lack of faith or whatever, than Jesus has and will continue to loose some.

you misquote the scripture in John 17, all that the father gave jesus , none were lost but the son of perdition

and if you re saved, why do you sin? is it God making you sin? God forbid?, you sin of your own choice and when you are tempted. God does not tempt any man. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. if while we SEEK TO BE JUSTIFIED by Christ we are found sinners this is a problem. Paul said not to be deceived no idolater, fornicator, drunkard etc will enter the kingdom of God. Yet how many are in the flesh and sin and still hold onto this eternal security view. Paul says they are decided.

even in the OT we see this warning pf false prophets promising men peace when they are in wickedness,

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah....16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." ( Jeremiah 23:14, 16,17 KJV)

Sounds like the eternal security doctrine to me. Promising those who are in such wickedness that they can never fall away and they shall have peace.

Take heed

 

[Thomas Woods]

I thought Judas betrayed Jesus after Satan entered him.

Was this part of God's plan. Jesus needed to save us all from our sins. So Judas did what he did. He was supposed to do it. Otherwise people would sleep late on Sundays, instead of going to Church and giving thanks.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Was this part of God's plan. Jesus needed to save us all from our sins. So Judas did what he did. He was supposed to do it. Otherwise people would sleep late on Sundays, instead of going to Church and giving thanks.

To say he had to do it sounds like he was forced to do it as a puppet. No he chose to sin and depart from God and betray jesus. God does not tempt any man to sin. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed