Which Law? What Rules?

[Open Heart]

I suppose my question is, what is the law actually for, in regards to the Christian? It doesn't seem the law is "to be obeyed, or else..." since no Christian keeps the law (or, none that I've met, anyway); and so the real focus is forgiveness.

Obedience brings us closer to God, sinning less forms us more into Christlike beings, and it gives us a better, more wholesome life. I don't know about "or else," because there is forgiveness. There was ALWAYS forgiveness (atonement was built into the system). Perfection is not necessary. The idea is to aspire with the help of the holy spirit to obey, as part of our sanctification. When we fall, God picks us back up again.

 

[Open Heart]

It is the law given to Moses, the covenant made with Moses on behalf of the Israelites. I think it is this law because of the multitude of passages written by Paul. Do you want me to list them? There are dozens.

There are certainly dozens of passages written about Mosaic law. I just don't see anything that connects Mosaic law to the law of sin and death. Why would God take his people, the Israelites, and deliver them from slavery, only to give them sin and death? It makes no sense.

Rather, God was teaching them that with freedom comes responsibility. It's not just living, but living rightly. If they are to live free, it means living for HIM, in relationship. The Law brought them closer to God. It gave them better, more wholesome lives. God used the Law to create the ideal society.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Read the text. The ritual purification involved a sacrifice.

Does 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 answer this query?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Obedience brings us closer to God, sinning less forms us more into Christlike beings, and it gives us a better, more wholesome life. I don't know about "or else," because there is forgiveness. There was ALWAYS forgiveness (atonement was built into the system). Perfection is not necessary. The idea is to aspire with the help of the holy spirit to obey, as part of our sanctification. When we fall, God picks us back up again.

You're touching on what I'm getting at. A Christian (at least, one that is not feigning his faith) does not want to break the rules. He knows that the law is good, and he wants to perfectly keep the law but he isn't able to. He may "sin less" as he goes, but sin is still sin, and one violation of the law is a violation of the whole of the law. But every time he violates the law, he's forgiven. So the law really has no power of accusation, except in his own heart.

So the law really does, nothing. It's usefulness is to bring to Christ, but afterward, it has no real use or purpose. It can't give "knowledge of sin" anymore since the Christian already knows that when in Christ. It can't "bring to Christ" anymore, since the Christian is already brought to Christ. It can't accuse anymore since the Christian is already forgiven. So, the law, I'm not seeing what use it has after coming to Christ.

We can say "We would like to keep the law" but we can't actually keep the law. We can say "We would like to keep the law" but the law doesn't help us to keep the law. We don't keep the law, or, strive to keep the law, to be "holy and good" but because we are "holy and good" (in love) it is in our very nature to desire to, keep the law. But that is the Spirit in us, the Spirit of love, that is compelling us to "do good" and that Spirit is in us, with or without a written set of commndments. So, does a Christian "need" the law? It seems to me, no, He does not need it at all. It can and does nothing at all for him. The law seems to only have a purpose for those who are "lawless"; like those in our society who would gladly break the law without conscience if they could. It seems to me that the intent of "rules" and "commands" is not for those that have a conscience toward the welfare of others, but only for those that do not. And as such, we must present the law to them, and force obedience with punishment upon violation. But to those with conscience toward welfare of others, no law is necessary, and all infractions of law are "legal" by spirit of the law.

When someone says to a Christian "You must obey the law and commands" my question is, why? Naturally, you would want to, but if you break them, what is the consequence? Forgiveness. And forgiveness of violation of command is the same as, no violation of command, in the sense that there is no condemnation of the violation, but it was as if the command were not violated at all.

This becomes even more complicated when, a Christian doesn't know what laws he's supposed to be following in the first place. Even in this thread there are many saying contradicting things concerning what commands are to be followed, and what are not relevant.

 

[Open Heart]

The Law is obsolete in the fact that no one is held to the law after Jesus Christ. Jesus brought both sheep pens under Him. The High Priest.

There is no more Old Covenant, only the New Covenant.

I don't think anyone was held to the Law before. Atonement and forgiveness was always built into the system.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

There are certainly dozens of passages written about Mosaic law. I just don't see anything that connects Mosaic law to the law of sin and death. Why would God take his people, the Israelites, and deliver them from slavery, only to give them sin and death? It makes no sense.

Rather, God was teaching them that with freedom comes responsibility. It's not just living, but living rightly. If they are to live free, it means living for HIM, in relationship. The Law brought them closer to God. It gave them better, more wholesome lives. God used the Law to create the ideal society.

Great question! I agree! Why would God want to give the Israelites such a terrible covenant to enter into? Now this might be hard to accept on first reading but I wholly believe it's true. God wanted to make a grant covenant with the Israelites. A covenant similar to Abrahams and the New Covenant today, where God blesses them without requirements, but just for being in relationship with Him. Exodus 19:6 expresses Gods desire for Israel, to make them a nation of priests and a holy nation. But Israel didn't want this covenant because they were afraid. Exodus 20:19 tells us that Israel declined Gods grant offer in favour of a kinship covenant (indirectly). The people wanted to be told what to do, and promised they'd do it. This was the worst mistake in Israels entire history. God honoured their request and gave them the covenant.

He then became both their punisher and their defender. Their is a huge difference before and after this covenant. Beforehand God forgave and blessed etc. after this God was forced to punish anyone breaking the covenant. This is why the covenant is called the law of sin and death. When they sinned, they were killed. E.g stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

 

[Open Heart]

What is the sacrifice then?

Acts 21:26
So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.

Numbers 6:14-15
There they are to present their offerings to the LORD: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast--thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.

 

[Open Heart]

Does 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 answer this query?

Acts 21:26
So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.

Numbers 6:14-15
There they are to present their offerings to the LORD: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast--thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Acts 21:26
So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.

Numbers 6:10-11
Then on the eighth day they must bring two doves or two young pigeons to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. The priest is to offer one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering to make atonement for the Nazirite because they sinned by being in the presence of the dead body. That same day they are to consecrate their head again.

Yes, and 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 says Paul became like a Jew under the law to win them over into Christ.

 

[Open Heart]

So, the law, I'm not seeing what use it has after coming to Christ.

It's almost as if you didn't read what I wrote. The law helps us with our sanctification. And it doesn't require perfect observance to do that.

 

[Open Heart]

But Israel didn't want this covenant because they were afraid. Exodus 20:19 tells us that Israel declined Gods grant offer in favour of a kinship covenant (indirectly).

What??????? How do you get from the text that the covenant is different? This verse only states that they wanted Moses to be an intermediary for them, since the voice of God was so terrifying. It didn't change the terms or the promises of the Covenant in any way.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

What??????? How do you get from the text that the covenant is different? This verse only states that they wanted Moses to be an intermediary for them, since the voice of God was so terrifying. It didn't change the terms or the promises of the Covenant in any way.

There's much more to it than just this, but it will need to be a very long post. I was just introducing the idea, which I know is often new to people. I will write more on it, but will take a little while.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, and 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 says Paul became like a Jew under the law to win them over into Christ.

And later in Acts he testifies in court that he believes and has kept the Law. Did he lie?

Acts 24:14 I firmly believe the Jewish law and everything written in the prophets.

Acts 25:8 Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple"

 

[Open Heart]

There's much more to it than just this, but it will need to be a very long post. I was just introducing the idea, which I know is often new to people. I will write more on it, but will take a little while.

I'm assuming that in the very least you know your interpretation is very ideosyncratic (not held by many).

 

[John Hyperspace]

It's almost as if you didn't read what I wrote. The law helps us with our sanctification. And it doesn't require perfect observance to do that.

Trust me, I read what people write. My question is, how does the law "help" us with our sanctification. Exactly what is the law doing that helps you with this? If God repealed all laws tomorrow, would you then have no "helper" with your sanctification?

You said "The idea is to aspire with the help of the holy spirit to obey, as part of our sanctification." so what actually "helps"; the law or the Holy Spirit? This is somewhat my point. To me, it is the Holy Spirit that helps, not the law. The law does nothing at all but reveal sin, which I no longer need revealed since that revelation is now far past to me. Now, there is only the Holy Spirit which helps me "obey what is good" because every day my love grows, and by and through this love of others I want to do good - whether there is a written set of rules or not. God could repeal all law and command, and I would still be striving to be perfectly "good" by not hurting other people in any way, and helping them when I could. I don't need any written set of rules to "help" me be this way, this is simply my character because of the Holy Spirit (love) and nothing whatsoever because of written rules.

It seems to me there are two forms of "rule of law":

1. You have to follow the rules, or you will be punished for violation: this form is intended for people without conscience of the welfare of others. Break the rules and you are punished.

2. You want to follow the rules, and so will not be punished for violation" this form is intended for people with conscience of the welfare of others. Break the rules and you are forgiven.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I'm assuming that in the very least you know your interpretation is very ideosyncratic (not held by many).

This where I live...heh

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Okay here we go.

The Mosaic Covenant has two parts. Part 1 is a kinship covenant (Exodus 1-45; Numbers; Leviticus). Part 2 is a vassal covenant (Deuteronomy). A covenant is not only the law, but includes a canon (history of how the two partners walked together - including poetry, songs, art etc.). A covenant is legal and binding and both parties sign it. It is a body of literature.

Exodus 1-18 could be thought of as some of the cannon surrounding the covenant. The law is given in Exodus 19-20. Before the law was given we find some interesting differences to what came afterwards. Grumbling occurs in Exodus 15:22-26 with no punishment however in Numbers 11:1-3 grumbling is punished with a destroying fire. Exodus 16:1-15, more grumbling, this time about manna/quail. No punishment. Numbers 11:33-34, similar situation met with a killing plague. Sabbath violation in Exodus 16:27-30 results in a reprimand. But in Numbers 15:32-36 it is death by stoning. Thus we find a great change before and after Exodus 19-20 when the law was given.

So let's look at what happened in Exodus 19-20. In Exodus 19:3-6 God spoke to Moses:

3 Moses went up to God [on the mountain], and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Say this to the house of Jacob and tell the Israelites: 4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will in fact obey My voice and keep My covenant (agreement), then you shall be My own special possession and treasure from among all peoples [of the world], for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation [set apart for My purpose].’ These are the words that you shall speak to the Israelites.”

God offered a grant covenant. Everyone would have access to God as priests and He would protect them. Then in verse 8 the people accepted the covenant saying "We will do everything the Lord has said". Then in verses 9-13 God gave Moses instructions for how the people were to prepare themselves (a covenant ceremony). He told them to wash for three days and God would then come down on the mountain in a cloud. They were not to touch the cloud, mountain (or even go near it), until the horn blasted. At that point they were invited to approach. The people did this. In verses 16-17, on the morning of the third day, God came in a cloud over the mountain with lightning, thunder, and a trumpet blast. Everyone was afraid, but Moses led them out to meet with God. The story continues:

Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 And it happened, as the blast of the ram’s horn grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with [a voice of] thunder.

Now we need to cross over to Deuteronomy 5 to continue the same story.

23 And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you approached me, all the leaders (heads) of your tribes and your elders; 24 and you said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he [still] lives. 25 Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die. 26 For who is there of all flesh (mankind) who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 You, Moses, go near and listen to everything that the Lord our God says; then speak to us everything that the Lord our God speaks to you, and we will listen and do it.’

The people got fearful. They no longer wanted to be priests who met with God. They chose Moses to go instead. Because they lived in Egypt as slaves, they sacrificed relationship and asked for rules to obey "..speak to us everything the Lord our God speaks to you, and we will do it". Rules. Not relationship. And now Exodus 19:20-25 makes more sense:

20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and he went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through [the barriers around the mountain] to the Lord to see [Me], and many of them perish [as a result]. 22 Also have the priests who approach the Lord consecrate (sanctify, set apart) themselves [for My sacred purpose], or else the Lord will break forth [in judgment] against them [and destroy them].” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, because You warned us, saying, ‘Set barriers around the mountain and consecrate it.’” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through [the barriers] to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth [in judgment] against them [and destroy them].” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them [again about God’s warning].

We see that God adjusted to the Israelite's request. Rather than all of Israel being a nation of priests, only Moses and Aaron were allowed to come... and get rules for the people. TRAGIC.

 

[smithed64]

The Law of Moses or the 613 Commands in the Old Covenant were a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. This is not talking about the Commands in the New Testament.

...

Except for the 9 Christ repeated. Yes, I agree.

 

[smithed64]

Attend a class on the Torah at a synagogue and you will see a HUGE difference in the quality with the study of the Law with Christians. It's Day and Night.

That's great, and I pray it's a blessing to you.
But you still can't say, all Christians. You can say the ones you know. Because I'm quite certain, you don't know all of us.
Don't make blanket statements, unless you can absolutely prove them.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Galatians 2:18

What is the context of Galatians 2:18?

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:14).

So when Paul says, "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." He is talking about his life as a Jew or Pharisee (Which Jesus had a problem with because they rejected Jesus and His words and they held on to man made traditions or laws). Paul is saying he is dead to the law (i.e. the law of Moses) in verse 19. Paul is not saying that all law is dead to us. For Paul himself said that what he has written to us should be regarded as the LORD's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Galatians 3:25

Well, first of all, the faith being spoken about here does not mean that the saints in the Old Testament did not have faith. Hebrews 11 shows us that the Old Testament saints also had faith. The faith being spoken about here is faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Which also includes repentance, i.e. a cry out to God to ask Him to forgive you of your sins with the intent that you will forsake those sins and not remain in them). Galatians 3:25 says that we are no longer under a schoolmaster. This schoolmaster was in reference to the 613 Old Covenant Laws and not the 1,050 + New Testament Commands or Laws. Nobody was ever justified by keeping the Law ever! Men were justified by faith even in the Old Testament. Galatians 3:25 is merely saying we are not under the Old Law (Which is what brang us to Christ). For this is why Paul says later in his letter to the Galatians,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law.

Galatians 4:21

Again, this proves that Paul is talking about the Old Law and not all Law or New Covenant Law. If you were to keep reading, Paul talks about the fulfillment of the promises. Here is what Paul says,

24 "These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.
25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother" (Galatians 4:24-26 NLT).

In other words, there are those who wrongfully misused the Law in the Old Covenant. They ingored love, faith, and justice in favor of a distorted version of God's laws (Making salvation all about what you do alone without a Savior or His grace). But that does not mean God does not want us to obey Him, though. That is what follows God's grace and mercy. For if there is no change to a life of obedience after having God's living in their life with His love effecting them, then they are proving they really do not know GOD (See 1 John 2:3-6).

2 Corinthians 3:6

The word "letter" is in reference to the Old Law of Moses. For the context references the Law of Moses by saying "tablets of stone" (2 Corinthians 3:3), the letter killeth (2 Corinthians 3:6), ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7), the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses (2 Corinthians 3:7).

In other words, the verse would read like this,

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter [the Old Law], but of the spirit: for the letter killeth [whereby the Old Law could kill you if you disobeyed it], but the spirit giveth life." (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Meaning, it is not saying that we are not under any Commands now. It is simply saying we are not under the Old Testament Commands as New Covenant believers.

2 Corinthians 3:17

This would not include sin or the breaking of the Commands within the New Testament. This is in context to the Old Law. We have freedom or liberty in the Spirit in regards to the Old Law (not the New Law).

1 Corinthians 6:12

I love the New Living Translation on this one. It really clears up the confusion here that most read into it when they read the KJV.

"You say, "I am allowed to do anything"--but not everything is good for you. And even though "I am allowed to do anything," I must not become a slave to anything" (1 Corinthians 6:12 NLT).

A few verses that help us understand the new covenant of love. We are under no law, but the Royal Law. Does the Royal Law go against or abrogate instructions that in accordance with love? Nope. But we don't follow them because they are laws, from the outside; we follow because we have love in our hearts, on the inside. Heartfelt love, not commanded love. See the difference?

Well, first, the fear of the LORD has not stopped since the New Covenant.

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21).

"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great" (Revelation 19:5).

Second, we are under a lot more commands than just the Royal Law, too. Try doing a study on the Commands in the New Testament sometime and you will see what I am talking about.

In any event, may GOD bless you.
And may you be more in the knowledge of Him and His good ways.

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