Which Law? What Rules?

[BoldPastor]

Yes, this is true.

The Saturday Sabbath is still required! That law was never changed by the Father. The RCC changed it to Sunday, which is adding to and diminishing from His WORD.
This Sabbath is mention over 85 times in the new testament. All the apostles kept it. It is the 7th day of the week.
But back in the Old, there were death penalties one would have to face in their life. For the Old Testament prescribes the death penalty for the following activities, among others:

• Murder[13]
• Adultery[13]
• Bestiality[14]
• Rape[15]
• Sodomy [16]
• One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law.(Numbers 15:32–36) (The Saturday Sabbath Command is a ceremonial law that has not been repeated within the New Covenant).
• The man and woman when a man meets a betrothed woman in town and sleeps with her. But if it is a case of rape where out in the country she called for help and no one heard, the death penalty only applies to the man[17]
• A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding[18]
• Worshiping other gods[19][20]
• Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)
• Taking the LORD's name in vain or cursing his name[21]
• Cursing a parent[22][23][24]
• Kidnapping[25]
• Disobeying a parent[26]
• Lying in certain cases (See this link here).

Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_punishment_in_the_Bible

But in the New Testament, we have God's grace to repent (i.e. to confess and forsake these sins). Not as a means to have a license to sin, but as a means to overcome it (By the Lord's power and help). But yes, there is the destruction of one's soul in the Lake of Fire (Whether they are a believer or not) if they break certain moral laws and do not repent of them before they die.


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[YouAreAwesome]

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Yes, Jesus' commandments. His day by day direction. In our heart. In the Spirit.

2 John 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about how there are those in the last days who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God.

Not sure why you threw this in?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

A person who truly loves God obeys what is commanded of them from their LORD. It's like a faithful husband. When he loves his wife, he will want to do those things that his wife says (Even the small things).

Yes exactly. After you were married did your wife give you a list of rules to follow? Or do you walk together day by day intimately loving each other and learning more and more about each other? If all you do is love your wife, you have done well. If all you do is follow the rules she has given you instructing her to love her, is this true love?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes exactly. After you were married did your wife give you a list of rules to follow? Or do you walk together day by day intimately loving each other and learning more and more about each other? If all you do is love your wife, you have done well. If all you do is follow the rules she has given you instructing her to love her, is this true love?

Some people do act like they were zapped one day into submission to God, don't they? Like a shock collar or something. And then they can look back and down on everyone who is not as good as they are.

The heart is wicked above all things, who can know it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes exactly. After you were married did your wife give you a list of rules to follow? Or do you walk together day by day intimately loving each other and learning more and more about each other? If all you do is love your wife, you have done well. If all you do is follow the rules she has given you instructing her to love her, is this true love?

Parallels like this have their limits. Having a wife is not an exact parallel of the relationship we have with GOD. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of GOD (Romans 10:17).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Not sure why you threw this in?

Because you are seeking to love without looking to the details of how to love according to God's Word. Love needs to be defined precisely by God's Word and not by our thoughts of what we think is love. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 illustrates the point of how certain believers have become lovers of pleasures more than being lovers of GOD. No doubt these type of believers thought they loved God. But it was not a Biblical type love.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, Jesus' commandments. His day by day direction. In our heart. In the Spirit.

2 John 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

It's more than just God guiding you alone. GOD will not guide you if you turn away from His Word or ignore it in some way. For we would not even have faith without the Word of GOD. For we are made holy by the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25-26).


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[Bible Highlighter]

In basic terms to keep this as short as possible. The new covenant laws and commands are no different than those given in the old testament.
The new covenant is signed in Christ's Blood and gives us grace to follow the All the commands, instructions, decrees, and statutes given by YHWH to Moses.
Every single one of those laws given to Moses falls under one of two categories: Love God or Love Thy Neighbor.
Jesus even stated this when He was asked which is the greatest command. He said"Love Thy God with all your heart and Love thy neighbor as yourself. On these two commands hangs all the laws of the Jews."
All these laws can be found in the first 5 books of the Bible. Especially Exodus through Numbers.
Look at every single prophet throughout the Bible. What was their same message? Return to the law of God! Even the new testament rings the same bell. Jesus was the walking example of these laws. Every answer He gave Satan when He was tempted was a law given to Moses.
What laws Jesus came to abolish were man made laws that corrupted YHWH's Perfect Laws and made them burdensome to follow.

Then you haven't studied the Commands in the Old and the New. They are vastly different in a lot of ways.


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[ToBeLoved]

Parallels like this have their limits. Having a wife is not an exact parallel of the relationship we have with GOD. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of GOD (Romans 10:17).


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Jesus Himself calls the church His Bride and Himself the Bridegroom. How does God tell men to love their wives? Like Christ loves the church.

Very relevant in the Bible.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

GOD will not guide you if you turn away from His Word or ignore it in some way. ....

Yes, it's hard to follow His directions if we harden our hearts to His voice. His Word is Jesus (John 1). He directs us via the Holy Spirit.

For we would not even have faith without the Word of GOD. For we are made holy by the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25-26).

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of GOD (Romans 10:17).

There are Christians scattered across the world who literally do not have access to a Bible. Do they not have faith? Of course they do, so I'll assume "Word of GOD" is Jesus and the words He speaks to us are via His Holy Spirit - the gentle peace of knowing. And it is a beautiful description of Him at our time of believing, we are made holy by Him and listen to all of His words.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus Himself calls the church His Bride and Himself the Bridegroom. How does God tell men to love their wives? Like Christ loves the church.

Very relevant in the Bible.

The funny thing is that loving is more than just a belief (even in loving a spouse - which the Scriptures would support). A husband who hits his wife and says he loves her doesn't really love his wife. Yet, you want me to believe your love for God as being a mental acknowledgement is superior to loving God in action. Eternal security teaches all that you need is a belief so as to be right with God. But this is not true.


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[YouAreAwesome]

Furthermore, continuing with our example of Christians without access to bibles. Are they immoral? Do they not know how to love?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Furthermore, continuing with our example of Christians without access to bibles. Are they immoral? Do they not know how to love?

Jesus says,

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48).​

In other words, to whom much is given, much is required. But most Christians today do have access to the Bible, so they will be without excuse before Jesus for receiving not His words. For if one receives not the words of Jesus, those very words of Christ will judge them on the last day.

For Jesus says,

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).​

In other words, if you did not receive the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, that tells you not to lust after a woman or your whole body could be cast into hell fire, then you will be judged by those words of Jesus. Same goes for Matthew 6:15, Matthew 10:33, Matthew 12:36-37, etc.

For Jesus says,

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).​

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[Open Heart]

You said "The idea is to aspire with the help of the holy spirit to obey, as part of our sanctification." so what actually "helps"; the law or the Holy Spirit? This is somewhat my point. To me, it is the Holy Spirit that helps, not the law.

You are creating a false dichotomy. It's like asking, what brings us to Christ, the Holy Spirit or an evangelist? The Holy Spirit speaks to us through the Law. The Law is the Word of God.

Part of our sanctification is learning to bend our will to God's will, learning to obey for the sake of obedience.

And another part of sanctification is developing a mind of Christ -- understanding in our hearts what is right and what is wrong. I know you are going to say that comes from the Holy Spirit, and I agree. But the Holy Spirit doesn't work alone, but along with the Bible. Christians can be pretty stubborn against the movings of the Holy Spirit. I can't tell you how many Christians I know of say "God has told us it's okay to have sex even though we aren't married." Yet the Law stands as testimony that they are mistaken.

 

[Open Heart]

Furthermore, continuing with our example of Christians without access to bibles. Are they immoral? Do they not know how to love?

Do they not attend Churches which read from the Bible and teach from the Bible?

 

[Open Heart]

That's great, and I pray it's a blessing to you.
But you still can't say, all Christians. You can say the ones you know. Because I'm quite certain, you don't know all of us.
Don't make blanket statements, unless you can absolutely prove them.
That's all I'm saying.

I can say that my father was an ordained minister with a Doctor of Divinity, and he didn't know Law as well as an Orthodox Jew.

And excuse me, but people ARE allowed to make generalizations -- there is nothing innately wrong with generalizations, so long as those generalizations are true.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The funny thing is that loving is more than just a belief (even in loving a spouse - which the Scriptures would support). A husband who hits his wife and says he loves her doesn't really love his wife. Yet, you want me to believe your love for God as being a mental acknowledgement is superior to loving God in action. Eternal security teaches all that you need is a belief so as to be right with God. But this is not true.
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Where have I said loving is "a belief" only? Love, when believed, moves us to love from the inside out. It is the compass of our life, His Spirit of love. Now let's examine the example of "A husband who hits his wife". First, where is the direct biblical command for husbands not to hit their wives? There is none. There is the biblical command for husbands to love their wives though. So we are in the same situation whether we follow NCT or BCT. How do we choose our moral actions with regard to love? We pray about them, we communicate with the people with who our actions affect, and we check in with other Christians to see what they think. We pray about it with the "church". All of this is how we make difficult decisions such as euthanasia. But this is example is clear, love will not birth physical pain upon our spouse that could be avoided. If we do have this problem, we need to see a counselor most probably. Any habitual act that contradicts love needs to be dealt with, confronted, removed. There is NO sinful action or thought that is "acceptable". All must be confronted and removed.

As for the second part, that might be a different issue. Eternal salvation is the gift that comes with entering into a relationship with God, Spirit to spirit, connection, through believing in Jesus. There is NO outward action or works needed for this, it is spiritual. Salvation IS the connection made between our spirit with the Spirit. Not lip service, but spiritual relationship. From this place love moves us.

For if one receives not the words of Jesus, those very words of Christ will judge them on the last day.

Jesus' word is made available daily via the Holy Spirit. It is not a single-minded one-way-street direction though. It is walking in His Word with peace and confidence. We can do whatever we want as long as we aren't grieving the Spirit. Following God's Word is not about following the commands in the Bible like laws, but about following His actual spiritually spoken Word that is living and able to cut between bone and marrow. We walk anywhere we want unless there is a stop sign. We work with Him to do good works. It is SO GOOD that we are judged by His very Word on the last day, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

And please don't misunderstand how I see this, when I read the New Testament, I am very careful to ensure I am not doing anything against the commands given by Jesus, Paul, John, James, Peter etc. But I do this from my relationship with God, I don't try and follow these prescriptive set of laws to gain a special blessing at the end of the age. It's just comforting to know that God's love within me moves me in the same direction as those in the past. Really, the commands in the New Testament are a very short list. To turn morality into a list of laws is simply impossible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where have I said loving is "a belief" only? Love, when believed, moves us to love from the inside out. It is the compass of our life, His Spirit of love. Now let's examine the example of "A husband who hits his wife". First, where is the direct biblical command for husbands not to hit their wives? There is none. There is the biblical command for husbands to love their wives though. So we are in the same situation whether we follow NCT or BCT. How do we choose our moral actions with regard to love? We pray about them, we communicate with the people with who our actions affect, and we check in with other Christians to see what they think. We pray about it with the "church". All of this is how we make difficult decisions such as euthanasia. But this is example is clear, love will not birth physical pain upon our spouse that could be avoided. If we do have this problem, we need to see a counselor most probably. Any habitual act that contradicts love needs to be dealt with, confronted, removed. There is NO sinful action or thought that is "acceptable". All must be confronted and removed.

As for the second part, that might be a different issue. Eternal salvation is the gift that comes with entering into a relationship with God, Spirit to spirit, connection, through believing in Jesus. There is NO outward action or works needed for this, it is spiritual. Salvation IS the connection made between our spirit with the Spirit. Not lip service, but spiritual relationship. From this place love moves us.


Jesus' word is made available daily via the Holy Spirit. It is not a single-minded one-way-street direction though. It is walking in His Word with peace and confidence. We can do whatever we want as long as we aren't grieving the Spirit. Following God's Word is not about following the commands in the Bible like laws, but about following His actual spiritually spoken Word that is living and able to cut between bone and marrow. We walk anywhere we want unless there is a stop sign. We work with Him to do good works. It is SO GOOD that we are judged by His very Word on the last day, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

And please don't misunderstand how I see this, when I read the New Testament, I am very careful to ensure I am not doing anything against the commands given by Jesus, Paul, John, James, Peter etc. But I do this from my relationship with God, I don't try and follow these prescriptive set of laws to gain a special blessing at the end of the age. It's just comforting to know that God's love within me moves me in the same direction as those in the past. Really, the commands in the New Testament are a very short list. To turn morality into a list of laws is simply impossible.

So you believe in forced salvation or forced regeneration? If so, is that your idea of love?

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[ToBeLoved]

It's more than just God guiding you alone. GOD will not guide you if you turn away from His Word or ignore it in some way. For we would not even have faith without the Word of GOD. For we are made holy by the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25-26).


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God's Word says that Christ is the good shepherd that cares for His sheep. When one of His Own is lost He goes and finds them and brings them back. God does not give up on us, no matter how many times we turn away.