Which Law? What Rules?

[Open Heart]

The differences is the Covenants and what God is and was trying to accomplish during the time periods.

If not for the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law, no one would know what God considers sin to be, so the 10 Commandments teach us all about what God considers to be sin and what God considers to be love.

That's part of it. But other parts were to:

• Draw Israel closer to him
• Give Jews a better life
• Create an ideal society

Why do Christians bring up the 10 commandments when I say Mosaic Law? The Mosaic Law is 613 commandments. It has to do with incest being an abomination, the penalty for abortion, kindness to animals, care for the poor, and many other things.

God always created the Old Covenant and law to be temporary, just as the Levitical sacrifices by the high priests were temporary until the Messiah.

I don't think you can say either one is temporary. Christ himself states in Matthew five that the Law is to be kept until heaven and earth pass away. Further, whenever Israel rebuilds the Temple, sacrifices will resume. It's just a matter of finding the right time.

You ARE aware, I'm sure, that the Apostles continued to make sacrifices after Christ ascended? (Acts 21, Paul goes to offer a sacrifice, stopped by force.)

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27

What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?

Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the "law of liberty"? Does it have "rules"? How do rules liberate? Are rules not, restrictive? Chains?

When answering, please be as specific as possible so that one might know what "rules" they are under and if they are obligated to perform these rules, and the consequence of not doing so. If one has placed themselves under a set of rules to follow, how is boasting "excluded" from one's ability to perform these rules?

Bonus question: if there is no consensus given in the thread as to the "rules" of the new covenant; how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?

Law of works=Law of sin=Law of sin and death=Mosaic covenant

Law of Spirit=Law of God=Law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus=law of Liberty=Royal Law=Law of love=New covenant

There is no specific set of moral laws. Instead Christians work together in prayer (if a specific moral dilemma arises). If we are mature, we walk in love. If we are immature, we must learn humility so that we may be challenged by those who think we are not walking in love. The Holy Spirit leads us into all righteousness. He convicts the world of sin and the Christian He leads into righteousness.

 

[bcbsr]

I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27

What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?

Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the "law of liberty"? Does it have "rules"? How do rules liberate? Are rules not, restrictive? Chains?

When answering, please be as specific as possible so that one might know what "rules" they are under and if they are obligated to perform these rules, and the consequence of not doing so. If one has placed themselves under a set of rules to follow, how is boasting "excluded" from one's ability to perform these rules?

Bonus question: if there is no consensus given in the thread as to the "rules" of the new covenant; how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?

As for the "law of faith" of Rom 3:27, he expounds in Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." That is the "law of faith". It's consistent with what he's about to say, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

The law of faith is that one's salvation status is not contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Rather simply by putting one's trust in God one is saved, as if he's already passed from death to life, as Jesus said, "He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

The implication of this is that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2

The law of sin and death is the curse of the law whereby one's salvation is contingent upon one's behavior. The law of the Spirit of life is that salvation is a free gift obtain by faith apart from works and that one is given the Spirit of God to influence one's ongoing behavior.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Then there's Luther's "Epistle of straw"; James, who stated that "faith without (deeds) is dead". After one has believed, repented, and received the Holy Spirit indwelling there is the requirement to evidence that faith, not just carry it in your heart.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Thanks for the replies all. I didn't want anyone to think I had left the thread; there are many long posts and I've read and considered.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Well, if you were to read the surrounding context or the chapter in Romans 3, you would see that this is talking about Initial Salvation (or how we are ultimately saved) and not Sanctification (i.e. a Continued walk with the LORD whereby we let His good works flow thru us - Making us more holy). The context also tells us that this in reference to the Old Covenant Law and not all law whatesoever. For Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Last I checked, circumcision is a part of the Old Testament and not a part of the Commands in the New Testament. We also have to realize that the Pharisees (who were Jews) regulated salvation to a form of Works Alone Salvationism without a Savior (thru faith). One clue of this can be found in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee." For the pharisee did not humble himself before God by crying out to Him so as to have mercy (unlike the Tax Collector).

Anyways, to answer your first question: What is the "Law of works"?
While God does not want us be unfruitful or to not be unholy, the phrase "Works of the Law" used in Scripture refers to a false mindset that the Pharisees had about how we receive salvation (i.e. Justification). This was not in reference to how we continue in good works after we have accepted Christ by faith. But the "works of the Law" was a phrase for a false way of thinking by the Pharisees that they could be saved by merely keeping a set of rules (That included some of God's laws and some of their own) without a Savior and His mercy.

As for your second question: What is the "Law of Faith"?
The Law of Faith is simply putting your trust in the LORD (Jesus) that He can save you when you first come to accept Him as your Savior by calling out to Him to save you from your sins with a Godly sorrow. The Law of Faith is also a day by day walk with GOD whereby we trust Him (According to what He says in His Word). Obeying GOD and what He commands of us is key to truly saying to GOD that we do trust Him.

For example: If God told you to sit in a chair that you knew could not hold your weight, but God said for you to trust Him and sit in the chair anyways, your action of sitting in the chair would determine your level of trust in GOD.

The law of Faith is nothing new. Even men in the Old Testament applied the Law of Faith to their lives (See Hebrews 11). For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Meaning, we cannot keep God's Law on our own power or trust in a set of rules alone to save us (Without a Savior). Again, this does not mean we can just ignore God's Commands and just have a belief on Jesus so as to have our golden ticket to enter God's Kingdom. For it seems highly unlikely that Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved gospel is the narrow way that Jesus talks about. So the Law of Faith produces a life full of goodness and not evil and sin (if we are truly abiding in Christ).



First, the bulk of Romans 7 is written from Paul's perspective of when he used to be a Jew before he became a Christian. However, even read in this way, Romans 7:25 appears to still be problematic to understand. Fortunately the Good News Translation sheds some light of understanding on Romans 7:25. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25).

In other words, the person who does not have Jesus Christ cannot obtain true victory over their sin. On their own (without Jesus), they cannot keep God's Word or Law. The Pharisee in Paul's day could only serve what they believe to be God's law with their mind while they are ruled by their sin nature (i.e. the law of sin).

So what is the "Law of Sin" in Romans 7?
It is the sin nature.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:23).

What is the "Law of God" in Romans 7 and 8?

The words "Law of God" in Romans 7 and Romans 8 can be read as a general phrase for meaning "obedience to God's Word." But if you want to get technical:

Well, in Romans 7, the "Law of God" are those Commands that the Jew thinks he needs to obey but cannot obey because he/she does not have Jesus Christ. So in this particular instance, the "Law of God" would be in reference to the Law of Moses (or the "righteousness" part of the Law of Moses (see Romans 8:4) that is still obeyed for the New Covenant believer today - like do not steal, do not murder, love your neighbor, etc. (Also see Romans 13:8-10)).

In Romans 8, the "Law of God" is in reference to God's Laws or Commands under the New Covenant.



The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is described in Romans 8:1. This is being in Christ Jesus and walking after the Spirit. By following this Law, one would fulfill God's Laws under the New Covenant and the righteous portion of the Old Law that is still applicable for New Covenant believers today (Like loving God and loving your neighbor). One is liberated or set free in following the Spirit (by being guided by God to obey those Commands in the New Covenant) vs. being in bondage to trying to make salvation about a set of rules alone (that ignores a Savior and His mercy) with a set of Laws that are no longer binding as a whole for the New Covenant believer. For many Old Testament Commands do not apply anymore. So making them a requirement and or as a way of salvation alone would be leading people into bondage. It's not that God is against Law. However, obedience to God's Laws (the proper ones in the right perspective) is a reflection of whether or not Christ lives within you or not (1 John 2:3-6).



The Law of Liberty is just another way of saying the Commands under the New Testament. These Commands are based on love. Hence, why James makes the point about how we are not to have respect of persons when we fellowship with other brothers and sisters (See James 2:12 and the surrounding context).

The Commands in the New Covenant are referred to as the perfect law of liberty because they are unlike the Commands in the Old Testament that can lead to a person's death if they disobeyed them. Also, one is set free from the bondage of sin if they obey the laws of love under the New Covenant. For if one submits themselves to GOD's Commands, they can be set free from such sins as inappropriate contentography, gambling, stealing, lying, idolatry, and hating, etc.

For example: The Constitution is a document that has laws in it that govern our freedom. So it is a law (document) of liberty (in a sense) because it gives you certain freedoms. Granted, it is not a perfect law of liberty like God's Commands in the New Testament, though.



Take a pen and paper and sit down and prayerfully write down every verse that sounds like a command in the New Testament and you will have your rules that come from Christ (God). For why would God place all these Commands for you within the New Testament if He did not intend for you to keep them?

As for boasting in keeping God's Word: Well, Jesus said we cannot do anything without Him (John 15:5). So there is no boasting if it is Christ doing the good work in you.

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

For Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell that he had if he desired to be perfect. But he was not willing to do that and he went away sad. The disciples then said, who can be saved? Jesus said, with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible (See Matthew 19:21-22, and Matthew 19:25-26).



It's pretty simple. There are many verses that suggest that the Law has changed as a part of the change in the Covenants or Testaments. In fact, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. At Christ's death: The temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the Law on animal sacrificies was no longer acceptable. Even during Jesus's ministry before the cross, He changed the Law on an eye for an eye. He said to instead to turn the other cheek. Jesus was preparing people for the New Covenant (that would officially go into effect with His death upon the cross). For a testament is not in force until the death of the testator (i.e. Jesus). Also, after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, Peter was told to eat unclean animals by GOD. However, this was a violation of Old Covenant Law. But the Law had changed (Hebrews 7:12). For the Scriptures say that Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). For no man can put new wine into old wine skins (Matthew 9:17); And Paul said we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses or the 613 Old Covenant Commands) (Romans 6:14). We are to obey the Commands in the New Testament. For Paul said if any speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul said that what he has written should be regarded as the LORD's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).


...

This is a really large post with a lot of information. But, could you simply state a list of the rules? Or, at least, the rules you have to obey? What I'm really wanting to know is: what are the specific rules a Christian must follow? And, what is the result of breaking those rules?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a really large post with a lot of information. But, could you simply state a list of the rules? Or, at least, the rules you have to obey? What I'm really wanting to know is: what are the specific rules a Christian must follow? And, what is the result of breaking those rules?

In my post, I address this. But I basically say that you should get a pen and paper out and write down what God is telling you are His Commands in the New Testament (As you read thru it in prayer). Meaning, anything that sounds like a direct order from GOD for you (with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit) that He wants you to obey within His Word (within the New Testament) are God's Commands. But if you need a quick large list (that is not complete or perfect to give you an idea), check out this one here:

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Note: Some of their commands are repeat commands. Also, I have found a few that are not on their list, too.

In fact, here are some commands that I did not see on their list:

• Believe & confess that Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (John 8:24 cf. John 8:57, 58, 59) (1 John 4:3).

• Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

• Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).

• Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35, 36).

• "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)

• Thank God without ceasing. (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

• Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

• Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)

• Pray the Lord's prayer (As an outline) (Matthew 6:9-13)

• Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

• Bear with them that preach another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4)

• Reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11)

• Correct and train others in the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

• Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)

• How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.

• Keep the words of the prophecy of Revelation (Revelation 1:3).

• Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)

• Study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)

• Put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17)

• Be ye Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16)

• Do not add or take away from God's Word (Revelation 22:18, 19)

• If we as believers sin, we are to confess our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9)

• Do all things thru Christ (Philippians 4:13)

Now, I am sure there are more of course. But the point is that each believer should do their own personal study on God's Commands and be aware of what He wants them to do within the New Testament.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).​

Side Note:

Please take note that I do not want you to cherry pick God's Commands out of the New Testament. I am basically telling you to write down anything that sounds like a Command from God within the New Testament and then ask God to help you obey them.


...

 

[smithed64]

I believe that Jesus taught original ideas, but they were almost entirely with regards to himself, that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself, etc. With regards to the Law, he really didn't teach anything new, but you really have had to study the Law to know this, and most Christians are not interested in studying the Law. He was of a school of Phariseeical thought after Rabbi Hillel (which was at odds with the School of Shammai, which ruled the Sanhedron during his day--obviously why you see them arguing so much).

I just think God should get the credit for getting it right the first time around. I mean think about it. Why do Christians get the idea that the Law teaches mistakes? The Law is GOD'S teachings. Would God teach lies? Honestly, think about it. If the Law is wrong headed, what does that say about the God who gave it?

The New Covenant builds on the Old. It doesn't contradict it.

I don't know of any Christians that are not interested in studying the Law.
You right He didn't teach anything new, but He did teach it, except for one the Sabbath Law.
We don't have the idea that the law teaches mistakes? The law is the school master to Christ. You can't know sin, until you know the law.

 

[John Hyperspace]

This is a bit of a follow-up question for any reading the thread:

1 Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 3:19, Galatians 5:18

If you woke tomorrow and the secular government announced a full repeal of all secular law; would this change your conduct? If it were now legal to murder, would you gleefully begin a murder spree? Or, would you still not murder? If there were no more speed limits, would you drive down a school road at 90mph? Or would you still drive slowly enough so as not to endanger pedestrians? No doubt there would be people who would revel in the lawlessness, and begin looting and commiting violence with impunity - but would you?

If you woke tomorrow to God announcing a full repeal of all commandments and rules and regulations; would this change your conduct? Would you gleefully begin commiting adultery on your spouse in your newfound freedom from rules? Would you say "Ah, now that I'm free of the rules, my crimesprees can begin"?

My question is, we know that rules and law are necessary to keep the "lawless" in line; but are rules and commands necessary for you? Is your conduct the same with, or, without, rules?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't know of any Christians that are not interested in studying the Law.
You right He didn't teach anything new, but He did teach it, except for one the Sabbath Law.
We don't have the idea that the law teaches mistakes? The law is the school master to Christ. You can't know sin, until you know the law.

The Law of Moses or the 613 Commands in the Old Covenant were a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. This is not talking about the Commands in the New Testament.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a bit of a follow-up question for any reading the thread:

1 Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 3:19, Galatians 5:18

If you woke tomorrow and the secular government announced a full repeal of all secular law; would this change your conduct? If it were now legal to murder, would you gleefully begin a murder spree? Or, would you still not murder? If there were no more speed limits, would you drive down a school road at 90mph? Or would you still drive slowly enough so as not to endanger pedestrians? No doubt there would be people who would revel in the lawlessness, and begin looting and commiting violence with impunity - but would you?

If you woke tomorrow to God announcing a full repeal of all commandments and rules and regulations; would this change your conduct? Would you gleefully begin commiting adultery on your spouse in your newfound freedom from rules? Would you say "Ah, now that I'm free of the rules, my crimesprees can begin"?

My question is, we know that rules and law are necessary to keep the "lawless" in line; but are rules and commands necessary for you? Is your conduct the same with, or, without, rules?

It's obvious that man's heart is dark. So I would say that a lot of folks would do whatever they like if they thought God didn't care about what they did.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But God does care about what people do. God does care about fair justice. For there are dire consequences in the after life for one's soul if they commit certain sins.

See:

Matthew 5:28-30
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 7:23
Matthew 12:36-37
Matthew 13:41-42
John 12:48
1 John 3:15
Revelation 21:8


...

 

[John Hyperspace]

It's obvious that man's heart is dark. So I would say that a lot of folks would do whatever they like if they thought God didn't care about what they did.


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Yes, of course; these are the "lawless" people for whom the law is specifically "codified and made known and enforced" in order to compel their obedience upon fear of punishment. But I'm asking about, people whose conduct would not change if all law was repealed. Clearly the law then, must not be for them, since when we remove it, it doesn't alter their conduct and desire to "keep the law" even in the presence of the liberty in "all is lawful": I guess the question is, who are the "rules" really written for? Those with love in their heart, which love compels their adherence to "law" even in the face of "all is lawful" and is a "law unto itself"; or, those without love in their hearts?

Naturally, this doesn't mean the one with love in his heart will perfectly obey every written rule and commandment; but if the rules and commandments are like "training wheels" for the lawless, is it possible that a faithful Christian can detach the training wheels of the "written commandments" and be just fine? Or, perhaps, even better? I'm reminded of a passage: 2 Corinthians 3:6

Honestly, to my mind, I just see a lot of good people beating themselves up over things that really shouldn't be of any concern to them whatsoever. A lot of fear and torment about, things they need not fear, but much like the Israelites in bondage, they think the written commandments are rigid, unflexible things, just waiting to whip them for their inability to, produce brick with straw.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, of course; these are the "lawless" people for whom the law is specifically "codified and made known and enforced" in order to compel their obedience upon fear of punishment. But I'm asking about, people whose conduct would not change if all law was repealed. Clearly the law then, must not be for them, since when we remove it, it doesn't alter their conduct and desire to "keep the law" even in the presence of the liberty in "all is lawful": I guess the question is, who are the "rules" really written for? Those with love in their heart, which love compels their adherence to "law" even in the face of "all is lawful" and is a "law unto itself"; or, those without love in their hearts?

Naturally, this doesn't mean the one with love in his heart will perfectly obey every written rule and commandment; but if the rules and commandments are like "training wheels" for the lawless, is it possible that a faithful Christian can detach the training wheels of the "written commandments" and be just fine? Or, perhaps, even better? I'm reminded of a passage: 2 Corinthians 3:6

Honestly, to my mind, I just see a lot of good people beating themselves up over things that really shouldn't be of any concern to them whatsoever. A lot of fear and torment about, things they need not fear, but much like the Israelites in bondage, they think the written commandments are rigid, unflexible things, just waiting to whip them for their inability to, produce brick with straw.

Uh, God is not a respecter of persons. Adam walked with God in the garden. But when he sinned he broke fellowship with GOD. When Ananais and Sapphira sinned, they were immediately killed and a great fear (not comfort or peace that they were saved) fell upon the church and all who heard it. Why? Because they went directly to hell for their horrible sin of lying to the Holy Ghost. So no. You are wrong. If God made the Law not applicable to Christians He would not be a fair and just and good God.

For it is the fear of the LORD that men depart from evil.

This is Christianity 101.

For there believers out there who only endure with the LORD for a time.


...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

This is a bit of a follow-up question for any reading the thread:

1 Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 3:19, Galatians 5:18

If you woke tomorrow and the secular government announced a full repeal of all secular law; would this change your conduct? If it were now legal to murder, would you gleefully begin a murder spree? Or, would you still not murder? If there were no more speed limits, would you drive down a school road at 90mph? Or would you still drive slowly enough so as not to endanger pedestrians? No doubt there would be people who would revel in the lawlessness, and begin looting and commiting violence with impunity - but would you?

If you woke tomorrow to God announcing a full repeal of all commandments and rules and regulations; would this change your conduct? Would you gleefully begin commiting adultery on your spouse in your newfound freedom from rules? Would you say "Ah, now that I'm free of the rules, my crimesprees can begin"?

My question is, we know that rules and law are necessary to keep the "lawless" in line; but are rules and commands necessary for you? Is your conduct the same with, or, without, rules?

Good question. Being that I am not under law, it really doesn't change anything, neither with the government, or with God's commands. "Love, love, love... all you need is love".

I would love.

Yes, of course; these are the "lawless" people for whom the law is specifically "codified and made known and enforced" in order to compel their obedience upon fear of punishment. But I'm asking about, people whose conduct would not change if all law was repealed. Clearly the law then, must not be for them, since when we remove it, it doesn't alter their conduct and desire to "keep the law" even in the presence of the liberty in "all is lawful": I guess the question is, who are the "rules" really written for? Those with love in their heart, which love compels their adherence to "law" even in the face of "all is lawful" and is a "law unto itself"; or, those without love in their hearts?

Naturally, this doesn't mean the one with love in his heart will perfectly obey every written rule and commandment; but if the rules and commandments are like "training wheels" for the lawless, is it possible that a faithful Christian can detach the training wheels of the "written commandments" and be just fine? Or, perhaps, even better? I'm reminded of a passage: 2 Corinthians 3:6

Honestly, to my mind, I just see a lot of good people beating themselves up over things that really shouldn't be of any concern to them whatsoever. A lot of fear and torment about, things they need not fear, but much like the Israelites in bondage, they think the written commandments are rigid, unflexible things, just waiting to whip them for their inability to, produce brick with straw.

YES!!!! TRUTH!!!! I see the same thing... and I've lived the same thing. It's amazing how the total removal of law produces freedom to be happy, enjoy life, speak with boldness and confidence, and love God in thankfulness. When the sinful desires are not bound by law, but removed completely, this is the bliss of heaven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good question. Being that I am not under law, it really doesn't change anything, neither with the government, or with God's commands. "Love, love, love... all you need is love".

I would love.


YES!!!! TRUTH!!!! I see the same thing... and I've lived the same thing. It's amazing how the total removal of law produces freedom to be happy, enjoy life, speak with boldness and confidence, and love God in thankfulness. When the sinful desires are not bound by law, but removed completely, this is the bliss of heaven.

So where in Scripture does it say that the following truths within Scripture have been abrogated?

Matthew 5:28-30
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 7:23
Matthew 12:36-37
Matthew 13:41-42
John 12:48
1 John 3:15
Revelation 21:8


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[YouAreAwesome]

Uh, God is not a respecter of persons. Adam walked with God in the garden. But when he sinned he broke fellowship with GOD. When Ananais and Sapphira sinned, they were immediately killed and a great fear (not comfort or peace that they were saved) fell upon the church and all who heard it. Why? Because they went directly to hell for their horrible sin of lying to the Holy Ghost. So no. You are wrong. If God made the Law not applicable to Christians He would not be a fair and just and good God.

For it is the fear of the LORD that men depart from evil.

This is Christianity 101.

For there believers out there who only endure with the LORD for a time.


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It's the kindness of God leads men to repentance.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

So where in Scripture does it say that the following truths within Scripture have been abrogated?

Matthew 5:28-30
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 7:23
Matthew 12:36-37
Matthew 13:41-42
John 12:48
1 John 3:15
Revelation 21:8


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Galatians 2:18
Galatians 3:25
Galatians 4:21
2 Corinthians 3:6
2 Corinthians 3:17
1 Corinthians 6:12

A few verses that help us understand the new covenant of love. We are under no law, but the Royal Law. Does the Royal Law go against or abrogate instructions that in accordance with love? Nope. But we don't follow them because they are laws, from the outside; we follow because we have love in our hearts, on the inside. Heartfelt love, not commanded love. See the difference?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will give you an indepth reply with Scripture. But please give me time to do so. Currently at that moment I am little busy.


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[Hawk Flint]

I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27

What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?

Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the "law of liberty"? Does it have "rules"? How do rules liberate? Are rules not, restrictive? Chains?

When answering, please be as specific as possible so that one might know what "rules" they are under and if they are obligated to perform these rules, and the consequence of not doing so. If one has placed themselves under a set of rules to follow, how is boasting "excluded" from one's ability to perform these rules?

Bonus question: if there is no consensus given in the thread as to the "rules" of the new covenant; how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?

First: The word "Torah" was rendered "Nomos" in the Greek, and Paul uses "Nomos" every time we read the word "Law" in his letters. Simply put, "Torah" means "instruction." I will refer to the Law of God as "the Torah," or "the Torah of God." I have not finished my work on this, but here is what I've learned so far from my source. I have also switched the word "Law" to "instruction" in order to hopefully make more sense of the verses.

1. The instruction of God. "Torah"

The Torah of God is the instructions contained within the Pentateuch (first five books of the bible) that were given for man to follow in order to live holy lives before our creator. These commands (and any other command from God) are the "Word of God," and to disobey the Word of God is sin. This is seen in Genesis 2:15-17, 3:6-19. Paul reinforces this by saying,"...I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the Law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the Law had not said,'You shall not covet.' But sin seized the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and produced in me every kind of coveting...when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died..." (Rom. 7:7-13). So the Torah shows what sin is, and sin is the breaking of the Torah (disobedience). This Torah reveals God's Holy nature, evidenced by the fact that Christ is the "Word made flesh," (John 1) and Paul says,"For Christ, being in very nature God..." (Phil. 2:6). The Torah also gives out curses and blessings ( Deut. 11:26 Deut. 27:15-26 Deut. 28), for disobedience and for obedience.

1. The Torah shows what sin is.
2. The Torah curses and blesses.
3. The Torah reveals God's Holy nature.
4. Following the Law is obedience; disobedience is sin.


2. The instruction of sin. Romans 7:23 "...I see another instruction at work in me, waging war against the instruction of my mind and making me a prisoner of the instruction of Sin at work within me."

This is the exact opposite of the Torah. This is the "Flesh" that is a power in opposition to the spirit; the natural sinful nature of mankind. We live in "Fallen bodies," and as a result, we are naturally sinful, disobedient, and rebellious towards God. When Adam and Eve sinned, their bodies became tainted by evil and subject to sin and death, and their children inherited this body from them. This continues down through all humans, and still is occurring even now. This is why it says in Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, and in sin my mother conceived me." The body we live in is a "body of death" that Christ will save us from in the ressurection. After we come into the faith, there is a battle, a war, within us between the Torah and the instruction of Sin. Sin uses the Torah to put us under the instruction of Sin and Death.

3. The instruction of Sin and Death. Romans 8:2 "because through Christ Jesus the instruction of the Spirit of life has set you free from the instruction of sin and death."


Those outside of Christ are still under this instruction. This instruction is the "curse of the Torah" that Paul talks about in Galatians 3:13,"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Torah by becoming a curse for us, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone hung on a pole,"(or what he was referencing: Deut. 21:23 "...anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse."). It is the death demanded of us by the Torah of God due to our disobedience. E.g.,"Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words written in this Torah by carrying them out" (Deut. 27:26). Christ took upon Himself this curse, setting us free from the instruction of Sin and Death, not from the Torah of God, as many christians have been deceived into believing. Our sins that we commit in our obedience to the instruction of Sin, leads to death, physical and spiritual, when we break the Torah of God, we come under this curse, and we will die a physical death first, then a spiritual one (i.e., the second death). We are in bondage to this instruction until coming into the faith, and when we are in this bondage we will be led to death.

1. We are alive and not under the instruction of Sin and Death.

2. We break a command of God.

3. We come under the bondage of the instruction of Sin and Death.

4. We desire a way out of bondage.

5. Through the instruction of the Spirit of life we are set free from our bondage.


4. The instruction of the Spirit of life (or just "the Spirit"). Romans 8:2 "because through Christ Jesus the instruction of the Spirit of life has set you free from the instruction of Sin and Death."

The instruction of the Spirit makes it known to us that the Torah of God is truth, and it leads us toward the Torah of God and away from the instruction of Sin. In fact, the Spirit exposes the deeds of the flesh and it's natural evil nature (that's when we realize the radical depravity of ourselves), and gives us a desire for the truth. The Spirit guides us to practice the truth (John 16:13), and Psalm 199:142 says,"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your Torah is truth." So the Spirit guides us into the truth, and gives us a desire for truth, and if the Torah is truth (and it is), then the Spirit guides us to carry out the Torah, thus, leading us into the truth. Ezekiel 36:26-27 further supports this purpose of the Spirit..."I will give to you a new heart and a new spirit within I shall put within you; I will take from you your heart of stone and give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and to be careful to keep my Laws." The Spirit reveals the fact that we are in bondage to the instruction of Sin and Death, and gives us the desire to be free from it (that desire comes when we hear the Word of God and realize our guilt of breaking it). In looking for the way out, the Spirit causes us to come to our creator in the faith that He has the way out. The Spirit leads us to faith, and is the one who causes this new creation of faith within us. This is why no one can come to God unless God calls them (John 6:44); it is election. He elects us, and then transforms us.


5. The instruction of Faith. Rom 3:27-28,"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By which instruction? The instruction that requires works? No, by the instruction of Faith."

There is an internal transformation, a new creation, within us caused by God, and this is it. God causes this transformation to come about by His Spirit, and this shows that salvation is not a matter of works, but by "He who calls". The Spirit causes us to "put on the new man" (Ephesians 2:8-9) and to transform our core beliefs from what we want to what God wants (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Paul says in Romans 10:17,"faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." So we hear the Word of God first, then believe it (faith), and are justified (declared, but not made, righteous), then we will want to live out our belief in righteous living, becoming righteous. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old (sinful man) is gone, and behold! The new (faithful man) is here!"


6. The instruction of Righteousness. Romans 9:31,"but Israel, pursuing a instruction of righteousness, did not arrive at that instruction."

Romans 9:31 indicates that there IS an instruction of righteousness, but what is it? Romans 1:5 "Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes FROM FAITH..." If the obedience comes FROM faith, then there was no obedience BEFORE the faith (the context here is Gentiles, who didn't have the Torah of God to obey at first). The Word of God was taken to the Gentiles, and many believed that it was truth. That belief (faith), resulted in obedience. That obedience led to righteous living."...if you know He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him" (1 John 2:29). "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" (Romans 1:17) Compare to Habakkuk 2:4 (which Paul was referencing), "See, the enemy is puffed up, and his desires are not upright –but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness..." This instruction is to practice righteousness, which is following our Creator's ways instead of our ways, or the ways of the flesh (which is opposed to the ways of God). Deuteronomy 4:8 states that God's commandments are righteous,"And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" And in Romans 7:12 Paul says,"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." So to practice righteousness is to obey the commands of God-the whole Torah, not just most or a little bit. This does not mean we will be perfect, we will fail sometimes, but we have grace for that. It is not legalism either, but obedience.


7. The instruction of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21 "To those outside the Torah I became as one outside the Torah (not being outside the Torah of God but under the instruction of Christ) that I might win those outside the Torah."


This shouldn't be to hard to figure out. The Torah of God and the instruction of Christ are the same thing, only Christ taught and practiced the Torah of God according to the according it's accurate interpretation. He didn't speak His own words, but the the Father's who sent Him (John 12:49-50). He was sent to "the lost sheep of Israel," to bring them back to the Torah of God, but because of their rejection the gift that was supposed to go to them fell to the Gentiles, to make them envious (Romans 11:11-12). He taught us to repent, that sin leads to death, and to "repent and believe."