Which Law? What Rules?

[ToBeLoved]

That's part of it. But other parts were to:

• Draw Israel closer to him
• Give Jews a better life
• Create an ideal society

Do you have verses

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why do Christians bring up the 10 commandments when I say Mosaic Law? The Mosaic Law is 613 commandments. It has to do with incest being an abomination, the penalty for abortion, kindness to animals, care for the poor, and many other things.

God clearly gave 10 Commandments which were the main law. The other things were clarifications off of the 10

 

[John Hyperspace]

Christ took upon Himself this curse, setting us free from the instruction of Sin and Death, not from the Torah of God, as many christians have been deceived into believing. Our sins that we commit in our obedience to the instruction of Sin, leads to death, physical and spiritual, when we break the Torah of God, we come under this curse, and we will die a physical death first, then a spiritual one (i.e., the second death). We are in bondage to this instruction until coming into the faith, and when we are in this bondage we will be led to death.

Let me be sure I'm understanding you correctly. Before "coming to faith" we're under "instruction of Sin" - but after "coming to faith" we're no longer "in bondage" to "instruction of Sin": but after "coming to faith" we're still under the Torah of God. What happens if we "break the rules" after "coming into the faith"? If a Christian steals? What do you mean to not be "free from the Torah of God"? Is the Christian in bondage still, since he is not free?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think you can say either one is temporary. Christ himself states in Matthew five that the Law is to be kept until heaven and earth pass away. Further, whenever Israel rebuilds the Temple, sacrifices will resume. It's just a matter of finding the right time.

I don't say that the Law is temporary and passed away Jesus and the Bible say that.

Romans 7:6
6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2-3
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Hebrews 8:13
13 In speaking of a new covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Acts 15:10
The law is an unbearable yoke.

Romans 4:14
If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant.

Romans 5:20
The purpose of the law was to increase sin.

I just follow what the Bible tells me. It tells me the Law is in the past and now both Jew and Gentile are under the New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You ARE aware, I'm sure, that the Apostles continued to make sacrifices after Christ ascended? (Acts 21, Paul goes to offer a sacrifice, stopped by force.)

Paul did not offer a sacrafice as in sacrifices.

Paul was going through ritual purification and that process and purification was what he offered.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

First: The word "Torah" was rendered "Nomos" in the Greek, and Paul uses "Nomos" every time we read the word "Law" in his letters. Simply put, "Torah" means "instruction." I will refer to the Law of God as "the Torah," or "the Torah of God." I have not finished my work on this, but here is what I've learned so far from my source. I have also switched the word "Law" to "instruction" in order to hopefully make more sense of the verses.

1. The instruction of God. "Torah"

The Torah of God is the instructions contained within the Pentateuch (first five books of the bible) that were given for man to follow in order to live holy lives before our creator. These commands (and any other command from God) are the "Word of God," and to disobey the Word of God is sin. This is seen in Genesis 2:15-17, 3:6-19. Paul reinforces this by saying,"...I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the Law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the Law had not said,'You shall not covet.' But sin seized the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and produced in me every kind of coveting...when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died..." (Rom. 7:7-13). So the Torah shows what sin is, and sin is the breaking of the Torah (disobedience). This Torah reveals God's Holy nature, evidenced by the fact that Christ is the "Word made flesh," (John 1) and Paul says,"For Christ, being in very nature God..." (Phil. 2:6). The Torah also gives out curses and blessings ( Deut. 11:26 Deut. 27:15-26 Deut. 28), for disobedience and for obedience.

1. The Torah shows what sin is.
2. The Torah curses and blesses.
3. The Torah reveals God's Holy nature.
4. Following the Law is obedience; disobedience is sin.


2. The instruction of sin. Romans 7:23 "...I see another instruction at work in me, waging war against the instruction of my mind and making me a prisoner of the instruction of Sin at work within me."

This is the exact opposite of the Torah. This is the "Flesh" that is a power in opposition to the spirit; the natural sinful nature of mankind. We live in "Fallen bodies," and as a result, we are naturally sinful, disobedient, and rebellious towards God. When Adam and Eve sinned, their bodies became tainted by evil and subject to sin and death, and their children inherited this body from them. This continues down through all humans, and still is occurring even now. This is why it says in Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, and in sin my mother conceived me." The body we live in is a "body of death" that Christ will save us from in the ressurection. After we come into the faith, there is a battle, a war, within us between the Torah and the instruction of Sin. Sin uses the Torah to put us under the instruction of Sin and Death.

3. The instruction of Sin and Death. Romans 8:2 "because through Christ Jesus the instruction of the Spirit of life has set you free from the instruction of sin and death."


Those outside of Christ are still under this instruction. This instruction is the "curse of the Torah" that Paul talks about in Galatians 3:13,"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Torah by becoming a curse for us, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone hung on a pole,"(or what he was referencing: Deut. 21:23 "...anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse."). It is the death demanded of us by the Torah of God due to our disobedience. E.g.,"Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words written in this Torah by carrying them out" (Deut. 27:26). Christ took upon Himself this curse, setting us free from the instruction of Sin and Death, not from the Torah of God, as many christians have been deceived into believing. Our sins that we commit in our obedience to the instruction of Sin, leads to death, physical and spiritual, when we break the Torah of God, we come under this curse, and we will die a physical death first, then a spiritual one (i.e., the second death). We are in bondage to this instruction until coming into the faith, and when we are in this bondage we will be led to death.

1. We are alive and not under the instruction of Sin and Death.

2. We break a command of God.

3. We come under the bondage of the instruction of Sin and Death.

4. We desire a way out of bondage.

5. Through the instruction of the Spirit of life we are set free from our bondage.


4. The instruction of the Spirit of life (or just "the Spirit"). Romans 8:2 "because through Christ Jesus the instruction of the Spirit of life has set you free from the instruction of Sin and Death."

The instruction of the Spirit makes it known to us that the Torah of God is truth, and it leads us toward the Torah of God and away from the instruction of Sin. In fact, the Spirit exposes the deeds of the flesh and it's natural evil nature (that's when we realize the radical depravity of ourselves), and gives us a desire for the truth. The Spirit guides us to practice the truth (John 16:13), and Psalm 199:142 says,"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your Torah is truth." So the Spirit guides us into the truth, and gives us a desire for truth, and if the Torah is truth (and it is), then the Spirit guides us to carry out the Torah, thus, leading us into the truth. Ezekiel 36:26-27 further supports this purpose of the Spirit..."I will give to you a new heart and a new spirit within I shall put within you; I will take from you your heart of stone and give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and to be careful to keep my Laws." The Spirit reveals the fact that we are in bondage to the instruction of Sin and Death, and gives us the desire to be free from it (that desire comes when we hear the Word of God and realize our guilt of breaking it). In looking for the way out, the Spirit causes us to come to our creator in the faith that He has the way out. The Spirit leads us to faith, and is the one who causes this new creation of faith within us. This is why no one can come to God unless God calls them (John 6:44); it is election. He elects us, and then transforms us.


5. The instruction of Faith. Rom 3:27-28,"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By which instruction? The instruction that requires works? No, by the instruction of Faith."

There is an internal transformation, a new creation, within us caused by God, and this is it. God causes this transformation to come about by His Spirit, and this shows that salvation is not a matter of works, but by "He who calls". The Spirit causes us to "put on the new man" (Ephesians 2:8-9) and to transform our core beliefs from what we want to what God wants (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Paul says in Romans 10:17,"faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." So we hear the Word of God first, then believe it (faith), and are justified (declared, but not made, righteous), then we will want to live out our belief in righteous living, becoming righteous. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old (sinful man) is gone, and behold! The new (faithful man) is here!"


6. The instruction of Righteousness. Romans 9:31,"but Israel, pursuing a instruction of righteousness, did not arrive at that instruction."

Romans 9:31 indicates that there IS an instruction of righteousness, but what is it? Romans 1:5 "Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes FROM FAITH..." If the obedience comes FROM faith, then there was no obedience BEFORE the faith (the context here is Gentiles, who didn't have the Torah of God to obey at first). The Word of God was taken to the Gentiles, and many believed that it was truth. That belief (faith), resulted in obedience. That obedience led to righteous living."...if you know He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him" (1 John 2:29). "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" (Romans 1:17) Compare to Habakkuk 2:4 (which Paul was referencing), "See, the enemy is puffed up, and his desires are not upright –but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness..." This instruction is to practice righteousness, which is following our Creator's ways instead of our ways, or the ways of the flesh (which is opposed to the ways of God). Deuteronomy 4:8 states that God's commandments are righteous,"And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" And in Romans 7:12 Paul says,"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." So to practice righteousness is to obey the commands of God-the whole Torah, not just most or a little bit. This does not mean we will be perfect, we will fail sometimes, but we have grace for that. It is not legalism either, but obedience.


7. The instruction of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21 "To those outside the Torah I became as one outside the Torah (not being outside the Torah of God but under the instruction of Christ) that I might win those outside the Torah."


This shouldn't be to hard to figure out. The Torah of God and the instruction of Christ are the same thing, only Christ taught and practiced the Torah of God according to the according it's accurate interpretation. He didn't speak His own words, but the the Father's who sent Him (John 12:49-50). He was sent to "the lost sheep of Israel," to bring them back to the Torah of God, but because of their rejection the gift that was supposed to go to them fell to the Gentiles, to make them envious (Romans 11:11-12). He taught us to repent, that sin leads to death, and to "repent and believe."

A very thorough examination. Well done.

You conclude the Torah and instruction of Christ are the same thing. We agree Jesus taught the Torah. In Galatians 4:4-5 Paul explains how Jesus was born under law to redeem those under law. But Jesus taught so that the Jews would cry out for a better covenant. Galatians 3:24 explains how for Jews the Law is a tutor to lead them to Jesus, Who brings in the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22). It is not the same as the Torah, specifically the Mosaic covenant, it is New.

The laws in the Torah are good for unsaved Jews, that they will be brought to freedom in Christ. They are not for Gentiles, ever. Neither are they for saved Jews.

 

[Hawk Flint]

Let me be sure I'm understanding you correctly. Before "coming to faith" we're under "instruction of Sin" - but after "coming to faith" we're no longer "in bondage" to "instruction of Sin": but after "coming to faith" we're still under the Torah of God.What happens if we "break the rules" after "coming into the faith"? If a Christian steals?

If we break the rules, then we have forgiveness (I call it grace), provided that there is repentance. I don't know how much sin would place us back under under the Law of Sin and Death, but, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. "

What do you mean to not be "free from the Torah of God"? Is the Christian in bondage still, since he is not free?

In bondage to God, slaves to righteousness. We present ourselves as slaves of righteousness to God, and His Law is what defines righteous living. He wants us to follow His Torah, to not sin; but to live righteous before Him. The Torah gives us freedom from God's wrath.

 

[Open Heart]

God always created the Old Covenant and law to be temporary, just as the Levitical sacrifices by the high priests were temporary until the Messiah.

I believe I answered this elsewhere to you in this thread, but in case you didn't see it, I'll answer again.

You have no grounds to say this. In Matthew 5, Christ specifically says that the Law will not end until heaven and earth pass away. The disciples continued to offer sacrifices -- we see Paul preparing to offer a sacrifice in Acts 21, which was only prevented by force. It is only a matter of time before the Orthodox become the majority in Israel, rebuild the Temple, and resume sacrifices.

 

[Open Heart]

Law of works=Law of sin=Law of sin and death=Mosaic covenant

What does it mean when it says "Law of sin and death" and why do you think it is the Mosaic covenant?

 

[John Hyperspace]

If we break the rules, then we have forgiveness (I call it grace), provided that there is repentance. I don't know how much sin would place us back under under the Law of Sin and Death, but, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. "

Surely if we have forgiveness then there's no way to be placed "back under the Law of Sin and Death" otherwise there isn't really forgiveness. I suppose my question is, what is the law actually for, in regards to the Christian? It doesn't seem the law is "to be obeyed, or else..." since no Christian keeps the law (or, none that I've met, anyway); and so the real focus is forgiveness. It's not "keeping the law" that does anything for the Christian, it's the forgiveness of God that does. Like the only thing that really matters is whether or not a person has forgiveness, regardless of whether or not he "obeys the written rules"

In other words, if a person can't keep the law, then what is the law actually for?

In bondage to God, slaves to righteousness. We present ourselves as slaves of righteousness to God, and His Law is what defines righteous living. He wants us to follow His Torah, to not sin; but to live righteous before Him. The Torah gives us freedom from God's wrath.

How do the rules give us freedom from wrath? Aren't the rules the very thing that causes wrath when we break them? Jesus went so far as to state that Moses is "the accuser": John 5:45. How can an "accuser" free us from wrath? Isn't an "accuser" the very one who intends to place us under wrath?

Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting the law isn't "good" and "holy": I don't think any Christian would dispute that the law is holy: but, what good is the law for "unholy" people who can't keep it? Except to "gender to wrath"? If God forgives the Christian when he breaks the rules, then what practical purpose does the law serve? I can understand the use of the law in convicting people of sin, but I'm not seeing how it has any other reason for being. It doesn't seem intended to be "obeyed" since no one fully obeys it by the letter.

 

[Open Heart]

I don't know of any Christians that are not interested in studying the Law.

Attend a class on the Torah at a synagogue and you will see a HUGE difference in the quality with the study of the Law with Christians. It's Day and Night.

 

[Open Heart]

Do you have verses

You can't proof text it. It is seen in the results of the Law when it is followed. Which of the three do you doubt?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

What does it mean when it says "Law of sin and death" and why do you think it is the Mosaic covenant?

First I'd like to say that your reference to Matthew 5:18 is controversial among scholars. My understanding is that the law remained for Jesus to keep until He accomplished His purpose. He was making sure the Jews understood that He didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill its requirements and bring in a new covenant that is MUCH better.

Second the law of sin and death is mentioned in Romans 8:2. For context, Romans 8:1 says we are not condemned anymore (by the law). Romans 8:3 says the law was powerless to free us from sin. So It is in the midst of this Paul calls it the law of sin and death.

This notion is reiterated throughout Pauls writings. He calls it "the ministry of death engraved on stones" in 2 Corinthians 3:7 and says "The law was brought in that trespass might increase" in Romans 5:20. There are dozens of verses showing this, I've chosen the first two that come to mind.

 

[Open Heart]

God clearly gave 10 Commandments which were the main law. The other things were clarifications off of the 10

Really? Which of the 10 commandments do the following fall under?

• Sex with a menstruating wife is an abomination.
• Tithe 10% for the levites and poor.
• Abortion is a property crime.
• One must shew away the mother bird before taking her eggs.
• Leave the corners of your field unharvested for the poor.
• Not to add to the Torah.
• Bind Tefillin upon the arm.
• Place a mezuzah upon the door.
• Recite grace after meals.
• Not to stand by idly when a life is in danger.
• Not to take revenge.
• Not to bear a grudge.
• To love the Stranger.
• Etc.

 

[Open Heart]

Second the law of sin and death is mentioned in Romans 8:2. For context, Romans 8:1 says we are not condemned anymore (by the law). Romans 8:3 says the law was powerless to free us from sin. So It is in the midst of this Paul calls it the law of sin and death.

Again, what do you think the Law of sin and death is? And why do you think it is Mosaic Law?

 

[Open Heart]

I don't say that the Law is temporary and passed away Jesus and the Bible say that.

The Bible says no such thing. Jesus says the opposite.

 

[Open Heart]

Paul did not offer a sacrafice as in sacrifices.

Paul was going through ritual purification and that process and purification was what he offered.

Read the text. The ritual purification involved a sacrifice.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe I answered this elsewhere to you in this thread, but in case you didn't see it, I'll answer again.

You have no grounds to say this. In Matthew 5, Christ specifically says that the Law will not end until heaven and earth pass away. The disciples continued to offer sacrifices -- we see Paul preparing to offer a sacrifice in Acts 21, which was only prevented by force. It is only a matter of time before the Orthodox become the majority in Israel, rebuild the Temple, and resume sacrifices.

The Law is obsolete in the fact that no one is held to the law after Jesus Christ. Jesus brought both sheep pens under Him. The High Priest.

There is no more Old Covenant, only the New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Read the text. The ritual purification involved a sacrifice.

What is the sacrifice then?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Again, what do you think the Law of sin and death is? And why do you think it is Mosaic Law?

It is the law given to Moses, the covenant made between God and Moses on behalf of the Israelites. I think it is this law because of the multitude of passages written by Paul. Do you want me to list them? There are dozens.