The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Luke17:37]

You may have rebuked them---but you did not debunk them.

Yes, I did. But I think 2 Timothy 4:3-4 applies.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, you didn't debunk Eternal Conscious Torment; you just convinced yourself you have. These arguments don't hold water and I already rebuked them.

I pray you endure in your faith to the end so you can enjoy eternal life and don't experience the eternal fire.

Regardless of whether you believe it, the Word is true and the wicked will dwell forever in the Lake of Fire. Such horror my sins deserve... but I thank the Lord for His mercy expressed to me and others in Adam's race--made possible because of Jesus' bitterly painful sacrifice.

...

 

[Hillsage]

My analogy is to explain Gen 2:7. If hydrogen and oxygen "BECAME" water which has two part, how is it that it's not the same for the soul? Moses said that God formed the man and breathed into him the breath or spirit of life and the man "BECAME" a living soul. It's the same, two things combined and "BECAME" something else. Water is not a part of water. likewise the soul is not a part of the soul.

Listen to your own logic. If spirit and dirt became a living soul then 1 Thess wouldn't say your whole spirit, soul and body. You really just don't get it, and you also don't see you're not convincing anyone else here either. But your effort does remind me of someone else. It was mother standing on main street, when the junior high band came by and she blurted out; "Oh look MY little Johnny is the ONLY ONE in step."

 

[Butch5]

I am sorry Butch but I can not accept your thinking. Your comments show you to be a believer in the "Annihilation theory".

This theory comes from those whose argument is from the meaning of the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” and "forever & ever". It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come.

But the key to understanding is that the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” so is the age to come. Butch, this is really very simple and I am perplexed that you are unable to grasp this teaching.

My dear brother, Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats in Matt. 25:46...........
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”.

Then in Matt. 25:34, He will say to the lost.......
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”.

The Bible’s story does not end by saying, “And the unrighteous were destroyed and exist no more.” Neither does it say, “And in the end all persons will be gathered into the love of God and be saved.” Rather, when God brings His story to a close, His people rejoice in endless bliss with Him on the new earth. But the wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

We have no right to rewrite the biblical story. Rather, we must leave it to God to define what is just and unjust and what is commensurate with His being “all in all.” He does not leave us in doubt about hell because He loves sinners and wants them to believe the gospel in this life.(http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/)

The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

With all due respect, how can you miss this doctrine?????

I didn't miss it. I see what you mean, it's just wrong. Do you believe God? God said,

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

God said the soul that sins will die. He didn't say the soul that sins will suffer eternal conscious torment. IF this is what God said and God cannot lie how could the punishment be something different?

John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. The only way to reconcile this is to say that the Lake of Fire is Gehenna. When describing Gehenna Jesus quoted from Is 66.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

The valley of Gehenna was just outside of Jerusalem. The prophet Jeremiah gave a prophecy of this valley.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

This is Gehenna. Jeremiah said it will be made holy to the Lord. How then could it be a place of eternal torment?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

Why would I even lift a Finger to try to "Intellectually Justify" anything that God Does, or has planned to do?????

 

[mmksparbud]

You really just don't get it, and you also don't see you're not convincing anyone else here either.

There are many on here who do not believe in ECT---you might think about rewording that, because many have been convinced on here by these debates. They have seen those other verses and realize now, there is no burning eternal torment. You may not see it, but others have. There are many who do not patriciate, but they watch, and some PM us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

 

[rjs330]

I am sorry Butch but I can not accept your thinking. Your comments show you to be a believer in the "Annihilation theory".

This theory comes from those whose argument is from the meaning of the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” and "forever & ever". It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come.

But the key to understanding is that the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” so is the age to come. Butch, this is really very simple and I am perplexed that you are unable to grasp this teaching.

My dear brother, Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats in Matt. 25:46...........
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”.

Then in Matt. 25:34, He will say to the lost.......
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”.

The Bible’s story does not end by saying, “And the unrighteous were destroyed and exist no more.” Neither does it say, “And in the end all persons will be gathered into the love of God and be saved.” Rather, when God brings His story to a close, His people rejoice in endless bliss with Him on the new earth. But the wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

We have no right to rewrite the biblical story. Rather, we must leave it to God to define what is just and unjust and what is commensurate with His being “all in all.” He does not leave us in doubt about hell because He loves sinners and wants them to believe the gospel in this life.(http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/)

The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

With all due respect, how can you miss this doctrine?????

Those are two of the best verses to indicate eternal punishment. Its interesting to note that it's Jesus saying this. To those that say we shouldnt use hell as a fear factor we only have to look at Jesus example. He had no qualms about using hell as a fear factor. In fact he talked more about hell than heaven. He used the word eternal which in context can only be understood as forever. Otherwise it necessitates stating eternal life is also not forever. If Jesus meant to say otherwise he would have made it more clear. Jesus also indicated which punishment he was referring to when he said the one prepared for the devil and his angels. It's pretty clear.

It will no consolation to the wicked to say "I didn't believe because some Christians said I would suffer in hell and I thought it was immoral for God to do that and I wanted no part of that." That will be held as no excuse because Jesus himself warned of it.

 

[Der Alte]

No, the reason I don't accept it is because I've studied it. I've look at how the words olam and aion are used in Scripture. A word can't have opposing meanings, that would defeat it's purpose, which is to communicate. You couldn't use a word to communicate that meant both yes and no. The words olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. As such they cannot mean both finite and infinite.

That a word is sometimes used figuratively, e.g. hyperbole, does not change its meaning. Simon was not literally a rock but Jesus called him one. James and John were not literally sons of thunder but Jesus called them that. Herod was not literally a fox but Jesus called him one. In this verse Paul clearly established the meaning of "aionios."

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; [πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
G4340 πρόσκαιρος proskairos
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only, that is, temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)​

One can google on the internet and find a plethora of websites which present themselves as some kind of expert on Hebrew and Greek and which say "aion" and "olam" can't mean forever because they "are used of finite periods of time. As such they cannot mean both finite and infinite."
.....In this verse Jewish scholars establish the meaning of "olam." I'm certain that the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars know how to correctly translate Hebrew.

Exo 3:15 ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משׁה כה־תאמר אל־בני ישׂראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שׁלחני אליכם זה־שׁמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃
[לעלם=olam]
225 BC LXX Exo 3:15 And God said again to Moses, Thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, The Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, [αἰώνιον/aionion] and my memorial to generations of generations.
1917 JPS Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.​

In your example you're reading your theology back into the definition. The Lake of Fire is not eternal. Ezekiel prophesied that Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

I don't think so. Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon [2 Kings 23:10]became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators. DA]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[mmksparbud]

Those are two of the best verses to indicate eternal punishment. Its interesting to note that it's Jesus saying this. To those that say we shouldnt use hell as a fear factor we only have to look at Jesus example. He had no qualms about using hell as a fear factor. In fact he talked more about hell than heaven. He used the word eternal which in context can only be understood as forever. Otherwise it necessitates stating eternal life is also not forever. If Jesus meant to say otherwise he would have made it more clear. Jesus also indicated which punishment he was referring to when he said the one prepared for the devil and his angels. It's pretty clear.

It will no consolation to the wicked to say "I didn't believe because some Christians said I would suffer in hell and I thought it was immoral for God to do that and I wanted no part of that." That will be held as no excuse because Jesus himself warned of it.

So you believe that unless you believe in ECT--you will end up in ECT?
Have you found the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost?

 

[Butch5]

Listen to your own logic. If spirit and dirt became a living soul then 1 Thess wouldn't say your whole spirit, soul and body. You really just don't get it, and you also don't see you're not convincing anyone else here either. But your effort does remind me of someone else. It was mother standing on main street, when the junior high band came by and she blurted out; "Oh look MY little Johnny is the ONLY ONE in step."

It's not my logic. It's the clear statement in Gen 2:7. It's the Scripture you're arguing with, not me.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV).

It seems you have two options. Either Gen 2:7 is wrong or your understanding of the passage in 1 Thess is wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

Got it. It is me not you. My eye sight is not so good anymore and a long read makes them water and get blurred.

Me too. I have an eye problem but my Drs work for the govt. and I couldn't get an appointment until next week.

 

[Butch5]

There are many on here who do not believe in ECT---you might think about rewording that, because many have been convinced on here by these debates. They have seen those other verses and realize now, there is no burning eternal torment. You may not see it, but others have. There are many who do not patriciate, but they watch, and some PM us.

That's one of the reasons I debate. I don't usually expect the one I'm debating to change their mind. However, there are many lurkers who only read. I've received messages from people that I have never seen post. I think it's rare that one who is debating would change their position, at least openly. That would require admitting that one is wrong and I don't see that often.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's one of the reasons I debate. I don't usually expect the one I'm debating to change their mind. However, there are many lurkers who only read. I've received messages from people that I have never seen post. I think it's rare that one who is debating would change their position, at least openly. That would require admitting that one is wrong and I don't see that often.

I have admitted when I was wrong before in regards to what Romans 3:25 was saying.
I also remember defending ECT on another Christian forum, but now, I am against it.
Also, when I was developing a chronology on the End Times, I had revised it many times based on what Scripture was saying.


...

 

[Butch5]

I have admitted when I was wrong before in regards to what Romans 3:25 was saying.
I also remember defending ECT on another Christian forum, but now, I am against it.
Also, when I was developing a chronology on the End Times, I had revised it many times based on what Scripture was saying.


...

I have too. What I was getting at is that when one argues vehemently it's hard to turn around and admit one is wrong

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have too. What I was getting at is that when one argues vehemently it's hard to turn around and admit one is wrong

I believe most people are unwilling to change their mind because it is either a matter of pride, or they cannot believe their church is wrong on a doctrine in the Bible. For me, it is very important to honor God's Word in what it is really saying (Regardless if others disagree or if I have to admit I am wrong sometimes).


...

 

[Butch5]

I believe most people are unwilling to change their mind because it is either a matter of pride, or they cannot believe their church is wrong on a doctrine in the Bible. For me, it is very important to honor God's Word in what it is really saying (Regardless if others disagree or if I have to admit I am wrong sometimes).


...

That's commendable and great to hear!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am just trying to remember when I made the turn and my eyes opened one day to the truth. When I look back, I couldn't believe I even considered the sickening concept of Eternal Torment. For it makes God into being this non-stop angry kind of God that runs contrary to how He is long suffering and loving and not willing that any should PERISH but that all should come to repentance.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's commendable and great to hear!

Thank you. But praise be to Jesus. I truly believe He has definitely transformed my heart.


...

 

[Butch5]

I am just trying to remember when I made the turn and my eyes opened one day to the truth. When I look back, I couldn't believe I even considered the sickening concept of Eternal Torment. For it makes God into being this non-stop angry kind of God that runs contrary to how He is long suffering and loving and not willing that any should PERISH but that all should come to repentance.


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I agree. Here's a link you might enjoy.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html