The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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Oh dear, he was giving an allegory not specific facts. We are not weeds.

Never said true Christians were the weeds.
The weeds are false Christians who are among the true Christians.
They will be taken into the barn and burned up (along with the rest of the wicked).
Burned up meaning that they will be destroyed, annihilated, or erased from existence.


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razzelflabben

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God gave us basic reasoning to understand what is good or evil. If we could not discern what is good and right, we could have never been able to accept Jesus and follow Him and His good ways.

Surely you would think it would be unjust or wrong to punish a child by torture in extreme amounts of pain for them stealing another child's toy. If that is the case, then surely you should understand that fair justice teaches us that God will punish people fairly according to what they have done and not by some mythological theory that we are sinning against God for all eternity (when we do not even own a time machine to do so). Eternal Torment is overkill in regards to justice and you know it deep down.


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thus the question, what works are we judged by....
 
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razzelflabben

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What, do you read minds too?
no, rational deduction based on how many questions you have been asked and refused to answer, nothing more or less....iow's you have set up a pattern of behavior in your posts that we can use to predict that you will avoid answering any questions you find uncomfortable to your opinion.
 
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rjs330

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God gave us basic reasoning to understand what is good or evil. If we could not discern what is good and right, we could have never been able to accept Jesus and follow Him and His good ways.

Surely you would think it would be unjust or wrong to punish a child by torture in extreme amounts of pain for them stealing another child's toy. If that is the case, then surely you should understand that fair justice teaches us that God will punish people fairly according to what they have done and not by some mythological theory that we are sinning against God for all eternity (when we do not even own a time machine to do so). Eternal Torment is overkill in regards to justice and you know it deep down.


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Once again that is your opinion. It is not God's thought. He thinks differently because he above all know the depths of the evil wickedness in a man's heart. You don't and can't understand it. It is as foreign,to you and me,as the understanding of eternal punishment or for that matter eternal reward. We don't understand. That's why we leave it in God's hands. He does understand and his judgements are true.
 
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mmksparbud

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no, as you were shown and refused a rebuttal, the bosom of Abraham/hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing...in fact, according to scripture that I provided hades/bosom of Abraham are thrown into the lake of fire....nothing about the lake of fire being done away with that I know of, you are encouraged to show passages that show it is, but instead you resort to false accusations and restating your opinion as it you were god.

I didn't say they weren't different, I said they're done away with anyway so I don't care what they are called. And last time I looked, I'm pretty sure I'm not God. To me that is a rebuttal which you say isn't.

please show even one occurrence in scripture where a false prophet is not human...thanks

This is what I mean---I've explained several times will one more time---I never said a false prophet is not human, I said in Re 20:10 it says THE FALSE PROPHET---singular--not plural!!!!! Please do not ask that question again, just refer back to this.
as I an others have shown you, this is referring to the believers not all humans or unbelievers, you can show your rebuttal, but just repeating what you believe is not a rebuttal.

This is for the whole planet!!! Like it or not! It is a new earth and a new heavens---everything is remade it is a rebuttal and quite saying it isn't. That is what scripture says!!!
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
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Once again that is your opinion. It is not God's thought. He thinks differently because he above all know the depths of the evil wickedness in a man's heart. You don't and can't understand it. It is as foreign,to you and me,as the understanding of eternal punishment or for that matter eternal reward. We don't understand. That's why we leave it in God's hands. He does understand and his judgements are true.

But this type of thinking is not Biblical, though. We are told in Scripture that we can understand God's Judgment and every good path of His.

"Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path." (Proverbs 2:9).​

As for God's ways not being our ways: This saying in Scripture is actually in reference to those who do not keep God's Word (Compare Isaiah 55:7 with Isaiah 55:8-9).

Anyways, there are more verses in defense of Conditional Immortality compared to Eternal Concious Torment.

Here is a good article that shows us this fact.

"I found 264 references to the fate of the lost. Ten (that is 4%) call it Gehenna, which conjures up the imagery of the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, notorious for the hideous rites of Moloch worship, in which children were thrown alive into the red-hot arms of the god – an abomination in the eyes of the Lord (Lv. 18:21; 20:2-5; 2 Ki. 23:10; 2 Ch. 28:3; 33:6; Je. 7:31; 32:35). It is often said to have been the site of the city's rubbish tip in the days of Christ, where bodies of criminals and animals were thrown, but evidence for this is late and unreliable. It is in any case an evil place in which are pictured corpses being consumed by fire and maggots as in Isaiah 66 (Mt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; Lk. 12:5). Two of these call it the Gehenna of fire.

There are twenty-six other references (that is 10%) to burning up, three of which concern the lake of fire of the Apocalypse. Fire naturally suggests destruction and is much used for the destruction of what is worthless or evil.

It is only by a pedantic use of the modern concept of the conservation of mass and energy that it is possible to say that fire destroys nothing. It has a secondary use as a cause of pain, as in the case of the rich man of the Lazarus story.

Fifty-none (22%) speak of destruction, perdition, utter loss or ruin. Our Lord himself in the Sermon on the Mount uses destruction, which he contrasts with life, as the destination of those who choose the broad road (Mt. 7:13). Paul uses it of 'the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction' (Rom. 9:22); of 'those who oppose you' who 'will be destroyed' (Phil. 1:28); of the enemies of the cross of Christ whose 'destiny is destruction' (Phil. 3:19). 'The man of lawlessness is . . . doomed to destruction' (2 Thes. 2:3); harmful desires 'plunge men into ruin and destruction' (1 Tim. 6:9). Hebrews 10:39 says 'we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who believe and are saved.' 2 Peter speaks of 'destructive heresies . . . bringing swift destruction . . . their destruction has not been sleeping' (2:1-3). 'The present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men' (3:7). The old order will disappear and 'the elements will be destroyed by fire' (3:10-12). The beast will 'go to his destruction' (Rev. 17:8,11).

The very common word apollumi is frequently used of eternal ruin, destruction and loss, as inJohn 3:16: 'should not perish', but it is also used of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son, who, though metaphorically dead and whose life was in total ruin, was restored (Lk. 15).

Twenty cases (8%) speak of separation from God, which carries no connotation of endlessness unless one presupposes immortality: 'depart from me' (Mt. 7:23); 'cast him into the outer darkness' (Mt. 22:13); he 'shall not enter' the kingdom (Mk. 10:15); 'one will be taken and the other left (Lk. 17:34); 'he is cast forth as a branch' (Jn. 15:6); 'outside are the dogs', etc. (Rev. 22:15). This concept of banishment from God is a terrifying one. It does not mean escaping from God, since God is everywhere in his creation, every particle of which owes its continuing existence to his sustaining. It means, surely, being utterly cut off from the source and sustainer of life. It is another way of describing destruction.

Twenty-five cases (10%) refer to death in its finality, sometimes called 'the second death'. Without resurrection even 'those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished' (1 Cor. 15:18). This has been brought out with great force by a number of modern theologians like Oscar Cullmann, Helmut Thielicke and Murray Harris. They show that the teaching of the New Testament is to be sharply contrasted with the Greek notion of the immortality of the soul, which sees death as the release of the soul from the prison of the body. What the Christian looks forward to is not a bodiless entrance 'into the highest heavens' at death but a glorious transformation at the Parousia when he is raised from death. Life is contrasted with death, which is a cessation of life, rather than with a continuance of life in misery.

One hundred and eight cases (41%) refer to what I have called unforgiven sin: adverse judgment, in which the penalty is not specified (e.g. 'they will receive greater condemnation' (Mk. 12:40)); life forfeited, with the wrath of God resting on the unbeliever (Jn. 3:36); being unsaved, without specifying what the saved are delivered from (Mt. 24:13). Other passages show salvation contrasted with lostness (Mt. 16:25), perishing (1 Cor. 1:18), destruction (Jas. 4:12), condemnation (Mk. 16:16), judgment (Jn. 3:17), death (2 Cor. 7:10), never with everlasting misery or pain.

Fifteen cases (6%) refer to anguish – this includes tribulation and distress (Rom. 2:9), deliverance to tormentors (Mt. 18:34), outer darkness (Mt. 22:13), wailing and grinding of teeth (Mt. 25:30), the undying worm (Mk. 9:48), beaten with many stripes (Lk. 12:47), the birth-pains of death (Acts 2:24), sorer punishment (Heb. 10:29).

There is one verse (Rev. 14:11) – this represents less than a half of 1% – which refers to human beings who have no rest, day or night, the smoke of whose torment goes up for ever and ever, which we shall come back to in a moment.

It is a terrible catalogue, giving most solemn warning, yet in all but one of the 264 references there is not a word about unending torment and very many of them in their natural sense clearly refer to destruction."​

Now, in my opinion, there are certain verses or passages that suggest ECT, but they do not make it a slam dunk in my opinion (Nor are there that many of these kinds of verses, either). Matthew 25:46 appears at first glance to teach eternal torment, but if we were to read the TYPE of punishment that is eternal here, by lookng at 2 Thessalonians 1:9, things become a little clearer. Then there is Luke 16:19-31. Sure sounds like the rich-man is being tortured. But is he? Does the story describe him screaming and that his flesh is sizzling? No. The rich-man is simply tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham. What about Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10? Well, the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. The word "forever" is also translated from the word "age", too. Revelation 14:11 is talking about those who worship the beast as not having rest while on the Earth. While Revelation 20:10 is talking about how the devil, and his two demonic minions will be tormented day and night (a set time) for the purpose of the ages of ages (i.e. they are tormented day and night because they tormented mankind for ages and ages). But even if you wanted to make Revelation 20:10 defend eternal torment, it still does not work because these are demons being tormented here and not humans.


Article Source:
http://www.truthaccordingtoscriptur...nditional-immortality-wenham.php#.V-GyLutOnMI

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Luke17:37

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Yes, Jesus is serious about sin---that is why He will totally do away with it. Both sin and sinner will be destroyed. Why should there be a problem with accepting eternal life with Jesus? He is life itself. He grants eternal life as a gift to the saved. He does not grant eternal life to the lost so that they can burn forever. There is not one single verse that says death is separation from God, not one. Like there is no verse that says the lost also get eternal life.

You seem to be ignoring my direct posts to you.

You have to define eternity the way God does, not the way you want to. The context is clear. People will experience eternal life or eternal suffering.
 
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mmksparbud

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You seem to be ignoring my direct posts to you.

You have to define eternity the way God does, not the way you want to. The context is clear. People will experience eternal life or eternal suffering.

Sorry if I missed any, I'm getting whiplash --I've got about 15 threads going and sometimes it seems like everybody is posting at the same time and right now I am getting very tired!

Yes--eternal life is eternal life----only to the saved. Not one verse states that eternal life is given to the lost so they can burn in hell.
I am going to bed. No sleep in last 40 hours.
 
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You seem to be ignoring my direct posts to you.

You have to define eternity the way God does, not the way you want to. The context is clear. People will experience eternal life or eternal suffering.

There are only 3 verses in my opinion that suggest ECT (and one verse that suggests burning in hell-fire) but even these verses do not make it a slam dunk in my opinion (Nor are there that many of these kinds of verses, either). Matthew 25:46 appears at first glance to teach eternal torment, but if we were to read the TYPE of punishment that is eternal here, by lookng at 2 Thessalonians 1:9, things become a little clearer. Then there is Luke 16:19-31. Sure sounds like the rich-man is being tortured. But is he? Does the story describe him screaming and that his flesh is sizzling? No. The rich-man is simply tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham. What about Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10? Well, the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. The word "forever" is also translated from the word "age", too. Revelation 14:11 is talking about those who worship the beast as not having rest while on the Earth. While Revelation 20:10 is talking about how the devil, and his two demonic minions will be tormented day and night (a set time) for the purpose of the ages of ages (i.e. they are tormented day and night because they tormented mankind for ages and ages). But even if you wanted to make Revelation 20:10 defend eternal torment, it still does not work because these are demons being tormented here and not humans.

In other words, I just took down ECT in one short paragraph. But if you were to try and do the same with Conditional Immortality, you will be spending a long time over the many verses that defends it.


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Butch5

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no, rational deduction based on how many questions you have been asked and refused to answer, nothing more or less....iow's you have set up a pattern of behavior in your posts that we can use to predict that you will avoid answering any questions you find uncomfortable to your opinion.

Rational deduction? Then why not define became?
 
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In regards to the words "for ever and ever."

Well, let's take a look at Jeremiah 7:7. It says,

"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever."

So are we to understand that God will cause the OT believer (at the time of the writing of this saying) was to dwell in the land of their fathers forever and ever for all time? But doesn't the old Earth pass away? Will there not be a New Heavens and New Earth for them?



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Luke17:37

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There are only 3 verses in my opinion that suggest ECT (and one verse that suggests burning in hell-fire) but even these verses do not make it a slam dunk in my opinion (Nor are there that many of these kinds of verses, either). Matthew 25:46 appears at first glance to teach eternal torment, but if we were to read the TYPE of punishment that is eternal here, by lookng at 2 Thessalonians 1:9, things become a little clearer. Then there is Luke 16:19-31. Sure sounds like the rich-man is being tortured. But is he? Does the story describe him screaming and that his flesh is sizzling? No. The rich-man is simply tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham. What about Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10? Well, the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. The word "forever" is also translated from the word "age", too. Revelation 14:11 is talking about those who worship the beast as not having rest while on the Earth. While Revelation 20:10 is talking about how the devil, and his two demonic minions will be tormented day and night (a set time) for the purpose of the ages of ages (i.e. they are tormented day and night because they tormented mankind for ages and ages). But even if you wanted to make Revelation 20:10 defend eternal torment, it still does not work because these are demons being tormented here and not humans.

In other words, I just took down ECT in one short paragraph. But if you were to try and do the same with Conditional Immortality, you will be spending a long time over the many verses that defends it.


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No, you didn't debunk Eternal Conscious Torment; you just convinced yourself you have. These arguments don't hold water and I already rebuked them.

I pray you endure in your faith to the end so you can enjoy eternal life and don't experience the eternal fire.

Regardless of whether you believe it, the Word is true and the wicked will dwell forever in the Lake of Fire. Such horror my sins deserve... but I thank the Lord for His mercy expressed to me and others in Adam's race--made possible because of Jesus' bitterly painful sacrifice.
 
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Major1

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No, the reason I don't accept it is because I've studied it. I've look at how the words olam and aion are used in Scripture. A word can't have opposing meanings, that would defeat it's purpose, which is to communicate. You couldn't use a word to communicate that meant both yes and no. The words olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. As such they cannot mean both finite and infinite.

In your example you're reading your theology back into the definition. The Lake of Fire is not eternal. Ezekiel prophesied that Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

I am sorry Butch but I can not accept your thinking. Your comments show you to be a believer in the "Annihilation theory".

This theory comes from those whose argument is from the meaning of the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” and "forever & ever". It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come.

But the key to understanding is that the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” so is the age to come. Butch, this is really very simple and I am perplexed that you are unable to grasp this teaching.

My dear brother, Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats in Matt. 25:46...........
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”.

Then in Matt. 25:34, He will say to the lost.......
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”.

The Bible’s story does not end by saying, “And the unrighteous were destroyed and exist no more.” Neither does it say, “And in the end all persons will be gathered into the love of God and be saved.” Rather, when God brings His story to a close, His people rejoice in endless bliss with Him on the new earth. But the wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

We have no right to rewrite the biblical story. Rather, we must leave it to God to define what is just and unjust and what is commensurate with His being “all in all.” He does not leave us in doubt about hell because He loves sinners and wants them to believe the gospel in this life.(http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/)

The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

With all due respect, how can you miss this doctrine?????
 
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mmksparbud

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No, you didn't debunk Eternal Conscious Torment; you just convinced yourself you have. These arguments don't hold water and I already rebuked them.

I pray you endure in your faith to the end so you can enjoy eternal life and don't experience the eternal fire.

Regardless of whether you believe it, the Word is true and the wicked will dwell forever in the Lake of Fire. Such horror my sins deserve... but I thank the Lord for His mercy expressed to me and others in Adam's race--made possible because of Jesus' bitterly painful sacrifice.


You may have rebuked them---but you did not debunk them.
 
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Der Alte

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God love brother but you have got to come up with a plan to shorten your comments. Such a long post causes me to not read it.
You don't have to read the entire post, word by word, I highlighted the important points and provided context for those who would say that I quoted "out-of-context."
 
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Major1

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You don't have to read the entire post, word by word, I highlighted the important points and provided context for those who would say that I quoted "out-of-context."

Got it. It is me not you. My eye sight is not so good anymore and a long read makes them water and get blurred.
 
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But their sacrifices were not accepted by God, though.
Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice now.
For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved but Jesus.


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Amen!
 
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