Hell.....

[Goatee]

Looking at the references to hell in Matthew, I see

“thrown into hell” (5:29)
God can destroy people in hell (10:28)
“thrown into hell” 18:9
“sentenced to hell” 23:33

and that’s just what I turned up in a few seconds. Whatever hell is, I think it’s pretty obvious that God puts people there.

I also think that’s the only view that makes sense. Hell is a result of God’s commitment to make the world right. He has to get rid of evildoers that don’t repent, since without repentance they can’t be safely put with the lambs.

I’m not saying any more about hell: who will go there, or whether it’s eternal punishment or something else. There are passages that can be read in different ways. But I don’t see any plausible way to avoid the existence of hell in some form, nor of the concept that God makes sure that unrepentant people (if any) are put there.

God doesn't put anyone in hell.

Its us who choose hell by our lives.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God doesn't put anyone in hell.

Its us who choose hell by our lives.

You're ignore the texts that are right before your eyes, aren't you?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Only one problem: Hell doesn't save anyone from anything. If you experience it, then you will never experience anything else. The reason we spank our children is not because we are angry. In fact, it is advised never to spank out of anger. We spank our children to teach them something. Hell teaches those who experience it nothing. Were it to teach them to love God, then it would be a temporary thing. But hell is not spanking. Hell is essentially the death penalty. It has the same usefulness. The death penalty does not result in the rehabilitation of the sentenced. It results in the death.

If hell were something God did reluctantly (in other words, without being willing), then it would have to have some kind of positive outcome, because nobody does something reluctantly unless they see a positive outcome. But there is no positive outcome from eternal torture.

The rest, I agree with.

God doesn't put anyone in hell.

Its us who choose hell by our lives.

So is the question "Hell can't be the Lord's verdict because it shows another side of him that doesn't sound like the One we've been reading and preached to? Or is the question the LORD's not responsible for those who go to hell?

The LORD does not delight in people going to hell and neither will he be singing "Kumbaya" with all his Saints when he finally punished all the sinners to Hades. I don't think that's his mission. If I were to be asked, the LORD has every intention of letting anyone who lives in wickedness know there's light and there is a darkeness, there is hell and there's a heaven and man is the one chose his destination. So Antletems, you are right we are the ones who will decide what our fate should be like.

However, even we lead whatever kinds of life here on earth the LORD has the right to pass judgement for the sake of HIM being GOD and to keep his word to the last letter. So, He's not out there to take us to damnation but to everlasting life. However, he can't pester us to join his fold, nor walk according to his statues all he will do, he will convince us of his presence, challenge our moral views and in his own ways, ask us if we believe in his SON or Not. :/

 

[Goatee]

Of course God can pass judgement. But, truly, God knows that it is 'US' that decide our fate.

It is only through the way we live / beliefs that determine if we go to Heaven or Hell. God is full of mercy so indeed he does forgive those who repent etc. God wants to save everyone!

Those who choose not to believe or repent choose hell. Simples!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Those who choose not to believe or repent choose hell.

Do you have any idea of how many millions of people have never even heard of Hell or the gospel of Christ in the past 2,000 years?

God chooses to show mercy on some. It's His choice.

 

[Goatee]

Do you have any idea of how many millions of people have never even heard of Hell or the gospel of Christ in the past 2,000 years?

God chooses to show mercy on some. It's His choice.

Its a different matter to someone who knows God to those that dont know God! What we know is that one chooses hell if you go against God. Those that know God and choose sin will end up where they deserve.

As for those not ever hearing of God etc then that indeed will be in the hands of God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Its a different matter to someone who knows God to those that dont know God! What we know is that one chooses hell if you go against God. Those that know God and choose sin will end up where they deserve.

As for those not ever hearing of God etc then that indeed will be in the hands of God.

You are claiming choice where there is no choice.

 

[7climber]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

 

[Shempster]

You are claiming choice where there is no choice.

You know-this really does appear to be the case. Ask any teenager with raging hormones how easy it is to "choose" not to be involved in sexual thoughts & activity. And for those who argue "well they still have a choice" then let me ask you how well YOU did being sexually pure through YOUR teenage years. Most of us would blush.
There seems to be a "law" in effect where we are born into sin and sin comes naturally. It really hits hard in the teenage years.
Most of us know for a fact that we were compelled to sin. We felt like we were dragged into it even though we have that little voice telling us its wrong. We don't need religion or a bible for that. We ALL know it inside when we sin.
Its just that most of us never really overcome sin. Thats sort of what its all about....NOT sinning anymore. But for the most part we just hold to the ole saying "we are just sinners saved by grace".

Anyway, it appears all of us are born to live and die in sin. So the vast majority of souls will die in the sins that they felt compelled to do. That's the majority of the souls that ever existed. So knowing this we must suggest God either:
1. just really goofed up the program
2. intended everything with restoration as the end game
3. intended everything with eternal torment as the end game

This idea calls into question the CHARACTER of the creator. Most orthodox Christians go with #3 with the caveat "He really doesn't want that, but oh well...that's the way the cookie crumbles"

 

[Goatee]

You are claiming choice where there is no choice.

Of course you would say that. Facts are there buddy.

 

[SnowyMacie]

You are claiming choice where there is no choice.

There is choice, you either choose to follow Christ or not.

 

[Shempster]

There is choice, you either choose to follow Christ or not.

Its not all that simple.
On the one hand its apparent that you can use the tag "believer or Christian" and really not be one because of continued, habitual sin. Remember that many will say "we did many works in your name" yet He says He doesn't even know them. The reason? Because they are workers of iniquity. So choosing to follow Christ doesn't do you much good if you still walk in the flesh, right? That's what they have been telling me all these years anyhow.

I'm sorry if I question everything. Been doing that since I was very young.

 

[Goatee]

There is choice, you either choose to follow Christ or not.

Exactly

 

[SnowyMacie]

Its not all that simple.
On the one hand its apparent that you can use the tag "believer or Christian" and really not be one because of continued, habitual sin. Remember that many will say "we did many works in your name" yet He says He doesn't even know them. The reason? Because they are workers of iniquity. So choosing to follow Christ doesn't do you much good if you still walk in the flesh, right? That's what they have been telling me all these years anyhow.

I'm sorry if I question everything. Been doing that since I was very young.

Like I said, you can either choose to know and follow Christ or not. You either choose to walk in the spirit or in the flesh.

 

[hedrick]

Its not all that simple.
On the one hand its apparent that you can use the tag "believer or Christian" and really not be one because of continued, habitual sin. Remember that many will say "we did many works in your name" yet He says He doesn't even know them. The reason? Because they are workers of iniquity. So choosing to follow Christ doesn't do you much good if you still walk in the flesh, right? That's what they have been telling me all these years anyhow.

I'm sorry if I question everything. Been doing that since I was very young.

This question is harder to deal with than it sounds. How many Christians are there who don’t have some kind of habitual sin? It’s really easy for that criterion to turn into “continued, habitual sin that I think is particularly reprehensible.” Also, given how sins affects people, it’s hard to believe that there’s anyone who doesn’t have a sin that they don’t recognize as sin. There are also plenty of sins where different Christian communities differ on whether they’re sins or not. With varying degrees of plausibility. There’s currently a discussion in one group about whether it’s a sin to sing a hymn that doesn’t use a Psalm as its text. If it is a sin, would doing so habitually condemn you? If not, why not? Some of the participants clearly believe that this is an obvious violation of God’s will.

Jesus definitely did threaten people whose lives didn’t reflect their faith. But the people he condemned were generally (always?) either people that didn’t ever help anyone (think of the sheep and goats) or those who abused other people. I’m not aware of any cases where he condemned someone for sexual sins or other types of sins that people typically think of with wording like yours.

My conclusion is that Jesus was more concerned that one’s life show positive signs of “fruit,” and less concerned with whether one had failures, as long as one was a follower of Christ and was repentant. Repentance in this context is an attitude of being open to correction, not a bookkeeping concept that if you fail to repent of any sin you’re in trouble. (That was one of Luther’s problem before his conversion, of course. He lived in fear that he had forgotten to repent of some sin, or failed to recognize something as sin, or not repented sincerely enough.)

As to the two passages you cite:

• Workers of iniquity appears to be Luke 13:27. Unfortunately there’s no context, so it’s hard to know what kind of iniquity he had in mind, or how he would decide whether someone who also is repentant is a worker of iniquity.
• Your reference to doing works in his name is presumably Mat 7:22, a parallel to Luke 13:27. Again, interpreters vary on just how to apply this specifically, because there’s not enough context to know. What does seem clear is that just doing things that we think are impressive isn’t enough. It has to be things that God wants. But I think we have to look at the rest of the Gospel to understand what those are. And in this passage the issue is what works we should do, not what sins we should abstain from.

That’s why I tend to avoid passages like that and look at the passages where he condemns someone for something that is clear in the context. Most of them are parables.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

...
My conclusion is that Jesus was more concerned that one’s life show positive signs of “fruit,” and less concerned with whether one had failures, as long as one was a follower of Christ and was repentant. Repentance in this context is an attitude of being open to correction, not a bookkeeping concept that if you fail to repent of any sin you’re in trouble. (That was one of Luther’s problem before his conversion, of course. He lived in fear that he had forgotten to repent of some sin, or failed to recognize something as sin, or not repented sincerely enough.)

As to the two passages you cite:

• Workers of iniquity appears to be Luke 13:27. Unfortunately there’s no context, so it’s hard to know what kind of iniquity he had in mind, or how he would decide whether someone who also is repentant is a worker of iniquity.
• Your reference to doing works in his name is presumably Mat 7:22, a parallel to Luke 13:27. Again, interpreters vary on just how to apply this specifically, because there’s not enough context to know. What does seem clear is that just doing things that we think are impressive isn’t enough. It has to be things that God wants. But I think we have to look at the rest of the Gospel to understand what those are. And in this passage the issue is what works we should do, not what sins we should abstain from.

That’s why I tend to avoid passages like that and look at the passages where he condemns someone for something that is clear in the context. Most of them are parables.

I think it comes down to being open before God in daily alignment (pick up cross to follow) which scripturally is found at the throne of grace. The throne of grace sounds cliche but it only means in prayer daily. Hebrews 4:16 I don't think repentance is acquired anywhere else afaik

 

[PapaZoom]

Only one Hell and oh so many differing opinions on such. So much for the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth (which is true but terribly misunderstood)

We see through a glass dimly. We can't be led into all truth if we see things only partially (or not at all).

NOBODY KNOWS what Hell really is. Not completely. For me, I choose to believe that God is all loving and that His love is a perfect love. He's the Prodigal Father longing for the return of His wayward children. It's all about Grace. Relationship with our Creator. Restoration.

So what is Hell exactly? I don't know. But it's not a place or a state I'd choose to be in for an eternity. It won't be pleasant. Having grow up in a church that preached Hell Fire! as a way to get one saved, I tend to believe that Jonathan Edwards got it all wrong. How about Saints in the Hands of a Loving Father. I'll go with that.

 

[PapaZoom]

Go to part two. It's long but it's interesting.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Of course you would say that. Facts are there buddy.

Am I your buddy? Watch the attitude, please.

 

[Goatee]

Am I your buddy? Watch the attitude, please.

Buddy means friend. You not a friend then? I accept you as my buddy / friend. God bless you my friend in Christ