Hell.....

[jimmyjimmy]

Think. If you live a life of sin, you are indeed choosing hell!

So, you have lived a life of sin?

 

[Hieronymus]

Think. If you live a life of sin, you are indeed choosing hell!

The blind and deaf do not see this, therefore they don't choose that.

 

[sculleywr]

What do you mean by free will? Can man chose contrary to his nature? And, I'm still waiting for biblical backing to your assertion.

Man cannot be in the image of a God Who has free will and not have free will. It would be like a painting of my bedroom with none of my furniture in it and a stove and microwave where my dresser is.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[jimmyjimmy]

God has to be "willing that some perish", but when I read that passage, Scripture said that God is not willing that ANY should perish.

You missed an important word in the text: You. Peter is addressing a group of Christians here. Check the context. "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

A being who causes pain with no goal at all except the pain itself is not capable of love.

Just because you cannot think of a reason doesn't mean that there is not one.

 

[sculleywr]

It is a place of fire. Both hell now/Hades and later the time of
people and other wicked in the lake of fire. Fire on earth from
God has been used to punish people.
lake of fire/furnace of fire/gehenna/...everlasting burnings?
Hades/tormented in this flame

Problem, those punishments are over when the fire is put out. And there is a greater purpose to them because it is not for the recipients, but for the witnesses. Nobody is going to benefit from witnessing eternal punishment. And since you can't witness it here on earth, it doesn't actually benefit us.

God is torturing people for no purpose according to this, which is contradiction of the Scriptural definition of love.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Man cannot be in the image of a God Who has free will and not have free will. It would be like a painting of my bedroom with none of my furniture in it and a stove and microwave where my dresser is.

Adam and Eve where created in the Image of God, and they had free will. Everyone else, save Christ, does not have the type of freedom you assume.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Nobody is going to benefit from witnessing eternal punishment. And since you can't witness it here on earth, it doesn't actually benefit us.

The entire universe will witness God's wrath, justice and mercy. All will see.

 

[sculleywr]

You missed an important word in the text: You. Peter is addressing a group of Christians here. Check the context. "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."



Just because you cannot think of a reason doesn't mean that there is not one.

"Not wishing that ANY should perish." Funny, last I checked, ANY is a different pronoun than "you". Of course, maybe it was just a fluke that the Scripture is talking about perishing to a group of people that, according to you, couldn't perish if they tried. Any means any. Sorry, bud, but I don't redefine words to fit Hellenistic Fatalism. I'll stick with St. Justin Martyr's understanding of Hellenistic Fatalism and not try to Christianize a pagan philosophy, if that's alright with you.

Either all were regenerated by the Crucifixion, or God is either limited or unjust. God does not punish people for how HE made them. You may as well say that a good dog owner goes around kicking puppies.

 

[sculleywr]

Adam and Eve where created in the Image of God, and they had free will. Everyone else, save Christ, does not have the type of freedom you assume.

Then we are not in the image of God and God didn't become a REAL human being, because if Christ had free will and we don't, then Christ did not have a true human nature. No human nature in Christ means no salvation, because whatever was not assumed by God in the incarnation CANNOT be redeemed.

Everyone in the world has the image of God, which is because CHRIST is human, and not because of Adam.

 

[sculleywr]

The entire universe will witness God's wrath, justice and mercy. All will see.

And none will benefit because God isn't love. He's a raffle ticket in the sky. Sorry bud. If you're telling the truth, then all the words you type have no meaning, no effect, and your evangelism is completely and utterly useless. In fact, you don't love. You aren't capable of love. You aren't human.

Choice is what makes us human. Of course, God COULD program us to be a certain way, but if He can program one to be elect, then He can and SHOULD program ALL to be elect if He is to be just as you say He is or loving as you say He is.

See, this is where Sola Fide goes to the extreme. It creates a God that is incapable of love because there is nothing that could ever receive a love that He isn't giving.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"Not wishing that ANY should perish." Funny, last I checked, ANY is a different pronoun than "you". Of course, maybe it was just a fluke that the Scripture is talking about perishing to a group of people that, according to you, couldn't perish if they tried. Any means any. Sorry, bud, but I don't redefine words to fit Hellenistic Fatalism. I'll stick with St. Justin Martyr's understanding of Hellenistic Fatalism and not try to Christianize a pagan philosophy, if that's alright with you.

Either all were regenerated by the Crucifixion, or God is either limited or unjust. God does not punish people for how HE made them. You may as well say that a good dog owner goes around kicking puppies.

Do you think that if you read Donald Trumps bank statement that YOU will have 100 million dollars? Or, is the 100 million his no matter who reads the statement?

The text is not a blanket statement to the world. It's addressed to a particular group. Pulling verses to support you ideas will never get you to the truth. The three most import rules in proper exegesis are: context, context, context.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And none will benefit because God isn't love. He's a raffle ticket in the sky. Sorry bud. If you're telling the truth, then all the words you type have no meaning, no effect, and your evangelism is completely and utterly useless. In fact, you don't love. You aren't capable of love. You aren't human.

Choice is what makes us human. Of course, God COULD program us to be a certain way, but if He can program one to be elect, then He can and SHOULD program ALL to be elect if He is to be just as you say He is or loving as you say He is.

See, this is where Sola Fide goes to the extreme. It creates a God that is incapable of love because there is nothing that could ever receive a love that He isn't giving.

God is a consuming fire, is He not? You have a modern, shallow, and very feminine view of what love is.

God has not eliminated the choice of His elect, but I can see that you don't understand how that works either.

Do you feel your position is so weak that you've already resorted to insulting me personally rather than debating the issue like a man?

 

[sculleywr]

Do you think that if you read Donald Trumps bank statement that YOU will have 100 million dollars? Or, is the 100 million his no matter who reads the statement?

The text is not a blanket statement to the world. It's addressed to a particular group. Pulling verses to support you ideas will never get you to the truth. The three most import rules in proper exegesis are: context, context, context.

"He is not willing that ANY should perish" is not a bank statement. It is either true or false. If your interpretation is true, then the text doesn't even matter because the text is useless. Making up context because your interpretation doesn't fit what you're reading is not a rule of exegesis. If the reinterpretation of the context causes the text to become completely nonsensical, then your context is not what you think it is.

Your reinterpretation of Scripture not only makes it nonsensical, it makes Scripture a giant LIE.

Besides, if you are right, then go and do whatever you want. Go kill someone. If you're elect it doesn't matter. If Hitler was elected, then he's in heaven. If Bin Ladin was elected, then he's in heaven. IT doesn't matter how many times you say that they couldn't be elect, your lack of divinity means your words mean nothing.

Sorry, I'm sticking with the early church on this, not some lawyer from the 15th century.

• 
  • Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20)
  
  • We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered
  according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For
  if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be
  blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their
  actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the
  good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not
  evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)
  
  • But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must
  have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God,
  wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may
  know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they
  should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be
  convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men
  shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God
  had created them so. (22)

 

[sculleywr]

God is a consuming fire, is He not? You have a modern, shallow, and very feminine view of what love is.

God has not eliminated the choice of His elect, but I can see that you don't understand how that works either.

Do you feel your position is so weak that you've already resorted to insulting me personally rather than debating the issue like a man?

I have a First Corinthians 13 view of love. If God does not follow EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE RULES, then He is not love. Period. End of discussion. Predestination violates EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE RULES.

 

[sculleywr]

So God creates puppies just so He can kick them, burn them, and torture them. True love that is. God made them sin, and then punishes them for doing what He made them do. The true sinner, then, is God. God is the cause and root of all evil.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So God creates puppies just so He can kick them, burn them, and torture them. True love that is. God made them sin, and then punishes them for doing what He made them do. The true sinner, then, is God. God is the cause and root of all evil.

You can't hear for all of your screaming. Added to the ignore list.

 

[sculleywr]

I can't hear because of my screaming. I'm not screaming. I'm making a metaphor. But glad to be on the ignore list of someone who believes in a being that creates a program and then punishes it for doing what he made it do.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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