Hell.....

[BobRyan]

Which part of the Nicene Creed do Annihilationists think is wrong?

The Nicean Creed does not address that subject --

 

[BobRyan]

Well, we have determined that Jesus Christ taught that the soul and body can be destroyed.

Matt 10:28. " fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (fiery) hell."

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."

As is so often the case in a clash between the "traditions of man" and the "Word of God"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[BobRyan]

Possibly we can. But I'm a moderator, and thus committed to following the rules. One of them says that this position can only be discussed in Controversial Theology.

Well in keeping with those rules - if they extend to the extreme point of banning certain Bible texts from GT -- then we need a list of what those are. otherwise we consider that merely quoting accepted Bible texts with some comment like "I believe this text" is still acceptable.

 

[BobRyan]

Looking at the references to hell in Matthew, I see

“thrown into hell” (5:29)
God can destroy people in hell (10:28)
“thrown into hell” 18:9
“sentenced to hell” 23:33

and that’s just what I turned up in a few seconds. Whatever hell is, I think it’s pretty obvious that God puts people there.

Agreed.

Is this being doubted??

I also think that’s the only view that makes sense. Hell is a result of God’s commitment to make the world right. He has to get rid of evildoers that don’t repent, since without repentance they can’t be safely put with the lambs.

Agreed - but I don't see much doubt of this on this thread so far.

But I don’t see any plausible way to avoid the existence of hell in some form, nor of the concept that God makes sure that unrepentant people (if any) are put there.

Agreed.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Possibly we can. But I'm a moderator, and thus committed to following the rules. One of them says that this position can only be discussed in Controversial Theology.

This is from the rules, near the end:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

 

[Timothew]

Well in keeping with those rules - if they extend to the extreme point of banning certain Bible texts from GT -- then we need a list of what those are. otherwise we consider that merely quoting accepted Bible texts with some comment like "I believe this text" is still acceptable.

It seems to me that they are putting themselves into an unnecessarily difficult position. The rules state that we are not allowed to agree with Jesus Christ in the General Theology section of Christian Forums. I believe that the soul and body of those in Gehenna will be destroyed just as Jesus said. This could be easily resolved by a simple rule change. Why should anyone be so divisive that they cannot allow the discussion of an opposing viewpoint, a POV that Jesus Christ Himself held?

 

[Timothew]

This is from the rules, near the end:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

I see.

So we are not allowed to believe "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?

Are there any other verses from the Bible that we aren't allowed to accept?
Please give me a list of banned verses from the Bible.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I see.

So we are not allowed to believe "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?

Are there any other verses from the Bible that we aren't allowed to accept?
Please give me a list of banned verses from the Bible.

Why not read the rules for yourself? BTW, you agreed to abide by them when you became a member of CF.

http://www.christianforums.com/help/faith/

 

[Colter]

Since the Bible says that, it is settled then. By the way, which verse in the Bible says "the unsaved will be tortured for an eternity"? I see where the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. But that is the exact opposite of being tortured for an eternity. But I want to believe you instead of what I read in the Bible in case I read it wrong. So please Sir, where specifically does the Bible say that the unsaved will be tortured for all eternity?

“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” Psalm 9:17
“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:” II Thes. 1:8
“… Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” Isa. 33:14
“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” Is. 66:24

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” II Thes. 1:9
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Mat. 25:46

 

[BobRyan]

This is from the rules, near the end:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

So then "hell" is not in that list. We can discuss the existence of hell and we can quote Bible texts that address that subject and that what John calls the "Lake of Fire" that burns with fire and brimstone is what other Bible writers call "Hell".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So then "hell" is not in that list. We can discuss the existence of hell and we can quote Bible texts that address that subject.

It seems like you are missing something in a very brief and easy to read cut-and-paste from the rules. Let me help:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

 

[PuerAzaelis]

Because it is true. And because our Trinity does not comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures.

Hear hear. The inability to read context is a form of cultural illiteracy, at best.

 

[hedrick]

Agreed.
Is this being doubted??

I should have cited the posting I was responding to. Yes, some people claim that God doesn't specifically put anyone into hell. That people effectively choose it, or that God's presence is heaven to some people and hell to others.

 

[BobRyan]

I should have cited the posting I was responding to. Yes, some people claim that God doesn't specifically put anyone into hell. That people effectively choose it, or that God's presence is heaven to some people and hell to others.

ok thanks for clarifying that.

Adam and Eve chose death - and it would not only get them the "first death" but it would get them the Rev 20 "second death". The same could be said of anyone that chooses to reject the gospel - they are choosing hell.

But God supernaturally puts them there - they can not create their own hell.

For example in Rev 20 -- all the wicked are raised at the end of the 1000 years --- the wicked cannot raise themselves.

All the wicked are then judged - at the Great White Throne judgment according to their deeds - but they cannot sit in that throne and "judge themselves"

Then that great lake of fire is created - and the wicked could not create it - themselves.

YET - it was still a choice by them during their lives to choose to accept or reject the working of the Holy Spirit calling them to accept the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

This is from the rules, near the end:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

So then "hell" is not in that list. We can discuss the existence of hell and we can quote Bible texts that address that subject and that what John calls the "Lake of Fire" that burns with fire and brimstone is what other Bible writers call "Hell".

It seems like you are missing something in a very brief and easy to read cut-and-paste from the rules. Let me help:

These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Annihilationism
● Gnosticism

I am "helping" by leaving the part in red - that you "might" be emphasizing.

The "not limited to" phrase means "anything else we may happen to think of but do not list" in your view?

And in that way no Christian doctrine at all is being eliminated from the list?? Is that how you suppose we would understand it?? If that is so then you are right to suppose that hell might be one of the "not listed" topics --- and so also the virgin birth and sola scriptura and the resurrection of Christ and the New Covenant and anything you wish to name "could be" on the list.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

2 Peter 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Hell is Darkness and burning sulfur after the LORD's judgment, Revelation 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire."

 

[BobRyan]

2 Peter 2:4 is not hell - because Peter said the devil goes about as a roaring lion - today - seeking whom he may devour.

It is not hell because Christ said that Hell is a place of punishment 'prepared for the devil and his angel' to be punished. Not to rule as kings.

so while it is true that Rev 12 has them cast out of heaven and cast down to earth as "punishment" it is not true that they are not among us causing trouble - as even NT apostles confronted demon possession and James says to "resist the devil" in James 4... Paul says that only by putting on the full armor of God may be be able to resist / survive / stand against the Devil in Ephesians 6. And in Rev 16 the demons go out to deceive all the kings of the earth at the end of time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Catherineanne]

ok thanks for clarifying that.

Adam and Eve chose death - and it would not only get them the "first death" but it would get them the Rev 20 "second death". The same could be said of anyone that chooses to reject the gospel - they are choosing hell.

But God supernaturally puts them there - they can not create their own hell.

For example in Rev 20 -- all the wicked are raised at the end of the 1000 years --- the wicked cannot raise themselves.

All the wicked are then judged - at the Great White Throne judgment according to their deeds - but they cannot sit in that throne and "judge themselves"

Then that great lake of fire is created - and the wicked could not create it - themselves.

YET - it was still a choice by them during their lives to choose to accept or reject the working of the Holy Spirit calling them to accept the Gospel.

Would you kill your child for eating an apple, when you told them not to?

Either you are more moral than God, or else neither would he.

 

[SnowyMacie]

So then "hell" is not in that list. We can discuss the existence of hell and we can quote Bible texts that address that subject and that what John calls the "Lake of Fire" that burns with fire and brimstone is what other Bible writers call "Hell".

Universalism and Annihilationism are Hell, or views on Hell that cannot be discussed outside of Controversial Theology.

 

[Colter]

In this area we can talk about Hell, we just cant talk about no Hell doctrines.