Calvinism, explained.

[EmSw]

First, I wasn't even referencing Calvin, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Second, what part of what i said is not true?

Here again, if Calvin did not tell the truth, which branch of 'Calvinism' is telling us the truth? NF, are your beliefs the complete and honest truth? Why did God predestine His elect to believe and propagate falsehoods?

 

[Hoghead1]

Here again, if Calvin did not tell the truth, which branch of 'Calvinism' is telling us the truth? NF, are your beliefs the complete and honest truth? Why did God predestine His elect to believe and propagate falsehoods?

Well, according to Calvin, GOd's secre

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, according to Calvin, GOd's secre

Sorry, my post got somehow interrupted. What I was trying to say is that according to Calvin, God's unrevealed, secret will would have been said to be responsible for programming the elect to propagate falsehoods.

 

[EmSw]

Sorry, my post got somehow interrupted. What I was trying to say is that according to Calvin, God's unrevealed, secret will would have been said to be responsible for programming the elect to propagate falsehoods.

I wonder how Calvin would presume to know God's secrets.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here again, if Calvin did not tell the truth, which branch of 'Calvinism' is telling us the truth? NF, are your beliefs the complete and honest truth? Why did God predestine His elect to believe and propagate falsehoods?

As I said, I was not referencing Calvinism. Are you having trouble understanding that?

Enough with the stupid questions. Address what I wrote, or don't say anything at all.

 

[nobdysfool]

Show me from scripture where I am wrong. All this other noise is designed to deflect from God's Truth that man's default destination is Hell because of his sin. Apparently that's too strong for some. Your problem, not mine. Unless God gives Saving Grace to a man, he will go to Hell, just as surely as night follows day.

As I said, man cannot come to God on his own terms, he must come to God on God's terms, God's way. And he is powerless to do so, apart from God's specific Grace.

God is the one in control, not man.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here again, if [insert your denominational Leader here] did not tell the truth, which branch of '[Insert your denomination here]' is telling us the truth?

So your question isn't as clever as you think, because it can be applied to multiple scenarios, not just Calvinism

Are your beliefs the complete and honest truth?

Are yours?
We are charged to walk in the Light we are given

Why did God predestine His elect to believe and propagate falsehoods?

You'll have to ask Him that. I don't presume to speak for God beyond His revealed Word.
The best I can give you is Romans 9:14-18:

As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

.

 

[EmSw]

Here again, if [insert your denominational Leader here] did not tell the truth, which branch of '[Insert your denomination here]' is telling us the truth?

So your question isn't as clever as you think, because it can be applied to multiple scenarios, not just Calvinism

I don't believe God predestines everything like you do.

So, which branch did God predestine to know, believe, and propagate the truth?

Are yours?
We are charged to walk in the Light we are given

Again, I don't believe in predestination of everything. Are you predestined to know, believe, and propagate the truth?

You'll have to ask Him that. I don't presume to speak for God beyond His revealed Word.
The best I can give you is Romans 9:14-18:

As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

How do you know you weren't predestined to be hardened? How do you know God didn't raise you up to show His power in you, just as Pharaoh? How do you know God doesn't hate you?

 

[nobdysfool]

I don't believe God predestines everything like you do.

Your choice. You can believe what you like, but you must accept the consequences of that belief if you're wrong...

So, which branch did God predestine to know, believe, and propagate the truth?

I don't know, and you don't either.

Again, I don't believe in predestination of everything. Are you predestined to know, believe, and propagate the truth?

Why do you persist on asking a question that cannot be answered?

How do you know you weren't predestined to be hardened? How do you know God didn't raise you up to show His power in you, just as Pharaoh? How do you know God doesn't hate you?

How do you know YOU weren't predestined to be hardened? How do you know God doesn't hate you?

Here's a novel concept for you, I take it on faith. Why are you playing the Devil's Advocate? Are you one of his? You sound like it.

For one thing, I'm not opposing God like Pharaoh did. I am walking with Christ daily, I pray, read the Word, and do my best to live as He would want me to. None of what I do earns me salvation, but the Fact that I believe and have seen answers to my prayers on many, many occasions, and have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit on many occasions, leads me to believe that God isn't going to cast me into Hell. I am responsible for my own walk with Him, and nobody else's.

Bottom line, I don't answer to you for ANYTHING, and certainly not my salvation. The state of my salvation is really NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Now, stop acting like a child of the devil, and show some christian grace (if you have any), and quit derailing threads.

 

[StanJ]

I wonder how Calvin would presume to know God's secrets.

I'm pretty sure the way all false teachers presume to know God's so-called secrets.

 

[Hoghead1]

I wonder how Calvin would presume to know God's secrets.

Yu know, I have wondered the same thing. If God does have a truly secret will, just how would Calvin or anyone know it was even there?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yu have a most incorrect understanding of predestination, as I have pointed out to you several times before and with direct quotes from Calvin. Yes, in Calvin, we are but puppets. In a similar vein, Luther said the princes are but puppets.

There is no "correct" understanding of predestination.

Predestination means and always has meant simply that the destiny of every thing was decided before that thing or person came into actual existence.

You may well be right if you said that Marvin Knox has explained predestination better than John Calvin did.

But, that being said, John Calvin did not teach a doctrine of external coercion or compulsion on the part of God concerning the choices His creatures make.

Concerning that - Calvin simply agreed with Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and the entire tradition of Christian orthodoxy.

John Calvin did agree with the T.U.L.I.P. segment which proclaims that God’s grace is irresistible and flows from his electing love. But Calvin (like me) believed that God's grace renews us from within. It does not coerce from without.

The view that God has predestined all that happens does not mean that God is a puppet master pulling on our strings so that we do what He wants apart from our own willing or doing. His will precedes our will, but it does not eradicate it.

The predestination of all that occurs in God's creation being completely compatible with the will of the creature is something that Calvin (like the Westminster Confession that followed him) would completely agree with.

Calvinism affirms with Arminianism that God does not coerce the love of his human creatures nor is He the author of their sins.

God does not work on his people by means of forcible coercion either to sin or to holiness. God does however renew the hearts of the elect so that we can feel and choose and do what we ought.

God does not renew the hearts of all men in such a way but the elect only.

His passing by of some men and pouring out His renewing grace on others does not in any way eliminate the guilt of the reprobate whom he passes by.

This is was John Calvin's conclusion in the matter as it is mine.

 

[nobdysfool]

Marvin, you can say it hundreds of times, but they still will not listen, because they don't want to. They would rather engage in divisiveness, strife, and trying to destroy other Christians who believe differently because they are yet carnal, babies in the Lord (assuming they are saved), and engage in a party spirit, thinking that they must defend God, because He can't defend Himself without their help. The idea of unity is lost on them, because they think it must be imposed from without, rather than growing naturally from within, by the Spirit.

The truth is, they still thing it's all about them.

It's not....

 

[Hoghead1]

There is no "correct" understanding of predestination.

Predestination means and always has meant simply that the destiny of every thing was decided before that thing or person came into actual existence.

You may well be right if you said that Marvin Knox has explained predestination better than John Calvin did.

But, that being said, John Calvin did not teach a doctrine of external coercion or compulsion on the part of God concerning the choices His creatures make.

Concerning that - Calvin simply agreed with Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and the entire tradition of Christian orthodoxy.

John Calvin did agree with the T.U.L.I.P. segment which proclaims that God’s grace is irresistible and flows from his electing love. But Calvin (like me) believed that God's grace renews us from within. It does not coerce from without.

The view that God has predestined all that happens does not mean that God is a puppet master pulling on our strings so that we do what He wants apart from our own willing or doing. His will precedes our will, but it does not eradicate it.

The predestination of all that occurs in God's creation being completely compatible with the will of the creature is something that Calvin (like the Westminster Confession that followed him) would completely agree with.

Calvinism affirms with Arminianism that God does not coerce the love of his human creatures nor is He the author of their sins.

God does not work on his people by means of forcible coercion either to sin or to holiness. God does however renew the hearts of the elect so that we can feel and choose and do what we ought.

God does not renew the hearts of all men in such a way but the elect only.

His passing by of some men and pouring out His renewing grace on others does not in any way eliminate the guilt of the reprobate whom he passes by.

This is was John Calvin's conclusion in the matter as it is mine.

But that is not Calvin's conclusion at all. And no, sorry, Marvin here is nowhere near Calvin. In Calvin, we have absolutely no choice. God predetermined absolutely everything ahead of time, right down to the smallest detail and this also includes all evil acts. Nothing was left for us to decide. If you are then predestined to be reprobate, there is nothing you can do about it. We axt exactly as God designed us to act and can act no other way. That's why in several other posts, I cited Calvin stating in his own nature tongue that "Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n' advienmt sinon ainsi qu' il a determine en son conseil...n'est point une chose qui se pourmemne et voltage a leur plaisir, mais que Diue par son conseil secret y governe tellement tout, que rein n' advient qu'il n' ait luy mesme determine de son seu et vouloir."
Thus, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, we read, "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished."
Bottom line: We have no choice, period.

 

[nobdysfool]

But that is not Calvin's conclusion at all. And no, sorry, Marvin here is nowhere near Calvin. In Calvin, we have absolutely no choice. God predetermined absolutely everything ahead of time, right down to the smallest detail and this also includes all evil acts. Nothing was left for us to decide. If you are then predestined to be reprobate, there is nothing you can do about it. We axt exactly as God designed us to act and can act no other way. That's why in several other posts, I cited Calvin stating in his own nature tongue that "Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n' advienmt sinon ainsi qu' il a determine en son conseil...n'est point une chose qui se pourmemne et voltage a leur plaisir, mais que Diue par son conseil secret y governe tellement tout, que rein n' advient qu'il n' ait luy mesme determine de son seu et vouloir."
Thus, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, we read, "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished."
Bottom line: We have no choice, period.

And what if that turns out to be exactly the way it is?

 

[Rick Otto]

In order to say everything is predetermined is also to say that God predetermined the sin of Adam & Eve.

So how do you explain God predetermining sin? When God is perfect.

Romans 9:22-23 works for me.

 

[Rick Otto]

But that is not Calvin's conclusion at all. And no, sorry, Marvin here is nowhere near Calvin. In Calvin, we have absolutely no choice. God predetermined absolutely everything ahead of time, right down to the smallest detail and this also includes all evil acts. Nothing was left for us to decide. If you are then predestined to be reprobate, there is nothing you can do about it. We axt exactly as God designed us to act and can act no other way. That's why in several other posts, I cited Calvin stating in his own nature tongue that "Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n' advienmt sinon ainsi qu' il a determine en son conseil...n'est point une chose qui se pourmemne et voltage a leur plaisir, mais que Diue par son conseil secret y governe tellement tout, que rein n' advient qu'il n' ait luy mesme determine de son seu et vouloir."
Thus, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, we read, "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished."
Bottom line: We have no choice, period.

Not true.
We have choices.
What makes you think God can't or didn't make provision and or allowances for choices, thereby predetermined them?
Do you believe His act of creation was spastic in that He didn't know what He was doing?

 

[Hoghead1]

And what if that turns out to be exactly the way it is?

Exactly the way what is? Certainly not Calvin. Do you mean in reality? If so, I would say that I seriously doubt that.

 

[nobdysfool]

Exactly the way what is? Certainly not Calvin. Do you mean in reality? If so, I would say that I seriously doubt that.

You're avoiding the question.

 

[EmSw]

Predestination means and always has meant simply that the destiny of every thing was decided before that thing or person came into actual existence.

So which came first - will of the creature, or God's predestination?

The predestination of all that occurs in God's creation being completely compatible with the will of the creature is something that Calvin (like the Westminster Confession that followed him) would completely agree with.

What I see is that without man's will, there would be no predestination, so predestination falls completely upon man. Therefore, God's predestination of man is utterly powerless from Heaven's standpoint, for the whole of predestination solely relies upon man's choices and actions.

If God's predestination is completely compatible with man's will, and vice versa, predestination is a worthless, useless, and powerless act of God. In the end, man is in complete control of his destiny, with God only agreeing with what man does.

If God foreknew a man would choose x,y, and z, He has to do absolutely NOTHING for it to come to pass. If God has to do ANYTHING (that is, predestine) for His foreknowledge to come to pass, His foreknowledge is flawed and weak.