Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

[BobRyan]

You now believe Moses?

Christ insists that we all accept the Word of God as given to Moses in Mark 7:6-13 and also in Luke 16.

You are now on board with that???

there is much false doctrine in the world - and what does Christ say is one source of false doctrine in Mark 7?

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

Yep, ya bet ya!

Have you had a change of heart??

Y
Does this appear in LK 16
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 16
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Nope!!!!What exactly do you mean by this verse? Are you attempting to get me to ignore the words of Jesus, God Himself?

bugkiller

Is it your claim that the surest way to get you to ignore the words of Christ in scripture - is to quote them to you??

I find your logic 'illusive' just then.

 

[bugkiller]

Ladies and Gentlement and expecially to those who call themselves Christians Bob has asked me if I hear Moses. What he really means is are you now admitting Christians are bound to the law? The answer to that is a resounding NO!!

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; I Tim 1

Anyone wish to discuss the above passages? Oh and I have many more.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 3:4 sin STILL IS transgression of the Law.
1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate..."
Romans 6 "what then shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? God forbid!"

Rom 8:5-8 the lost do not submit to God's Law neither indeed can they -- by contrast to the saved who are not at war with God according to the text.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then - probably should have spelled out what is said in Romans 8.

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Heb 8:6-10 NEW COVENANT: "I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind"



there is much false doctrine in the world - and what does Christ say is one source of false doctrine in Mark 7?

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luke 16
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)


Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

 

[Bob S]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

No one has indicated that Col2 "condemns" shadows. Why do you insist on putting your own slant on what we write?

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.


But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

I am sure that is what you would like for all of chapter 2 to say that.

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

Fits you and ellen to a tee.

 

[bugkiller]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)


Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Who but the pro law people are doing this very thing? Has anyone condemned you for trying to keep or as you will claim keeping the Sabbath? The very verse you bolded does not allow you to do what you're doing here.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)


Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Who but the pro law people are doing this very thing? Has anyone condemned you for trying to keep or as you will claim keeping the Sabbath?

You can't be serious.

Perhaps a short "summary" to refresh short term memory.

=============================================

You don't obey the Sabbath, .

Do you say that as the "Accuser of the brethren" in Rev 12 - or do you have some "other source"??

Perhaps most, at least some, of us give lip service to that idea. However, is there a particular reason you don't keep all of God's commandments?

bbbbbbb said: ↑
It seems to me that you and your SDA brethren are very busy transgressing the Law day in and day out, unless you have utterly deceived yourselves into believing that the LAW consists of only ten select commandments. Even then, you transgress the fourth commandment egregiously.

What a pack of accusations "in place of" Bible study.

Here is some Bible study.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest (remnant) of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

disciple1 said: ↑
You don't obey the Sabbath.

And then of course we have "you".

bugkiller said: ↑
You don't fool us for a split NYC second. You're not in compliance with the law. If you keep any part of it you're obligated to all of it per Gal 5:3.

The rebellious child will say to its parents "first you must be perfect then you may tell me to Honor my Father and Mother as God instructed in the Bible" -- but of course -- that is "old news"

 

[bugkiller]

BobRyan said: ↑
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Bob, the Sabbath is a holy day of Israel. You're still trying to get others to also make it their holy day. Thus you're really saying the Sabbath is a commandment of men.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Nope!!! it tain't so.

You can't be serious.

More serious than a heart attack.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”


10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.

Bob, the Sabbath is a holy day of Israel. Y

So then you are not a New Covenant Christian?

Old Covenant then? If you reject the New Covenant.

 

[tatteredsoul]

In this following post it is pointed out that in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.





Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.



Paul is focused on the problem of refuting the practice of 'making stuff up' --

Even if he did, so what?

With all due respect to Paul, he has no authority overy the law of God - not to change, or delete any parts of it. He is human.

We aren't supposed to let any human dictate the trajectory of our salvation, save Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Even if he did, so what?

With all due respect to Paul, he has no authority overy the law of God - not to change, or delete any parts of it. He is human.

We aren't supposed to let any human dictate the trajectory of our salvation, save Christ.

That is true - but we are supposed to hear the words of Scripture. If all the writers of scripture are merely giving "man's opinion" we do not have scripture at all.

 

[tatteredsoul]

That is true - but we are supposed to hear the words of Scripture. If all the writers of scripture are merely giving "man's opinion" we do not have scripture at all.

I agree.

But if it came down to something Paul said vs something God said, Paul loses miserably - that goes for all humans.

So if Paul actually was talking about us not having to follow commandments, but God never said so, then Paul loses, and is deemed an antichrist. I understand inspiration, but if you contradict God's commandments and word, your inspiration isn't from Him.

 

[BobRyan]

True and in Acts 17:11 we have this "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them (by the Apostle Paul) were so"

And Paul in Gal 1:6-9 says "though WE (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should preach a different Gospel - let him be accursed"

 

[tatteredsoul]

True and in Acts 17:11 we have this "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them (by the Apostle Paul) were so"

And Paul in Gal 1:6-9 says "though WE (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should preach a different Gospel - let him be accursed"

Exactly.

And yes it should be extended to angels/principalities/archons/etc. If human/archon/power/principality/angel/etc. Contradict God by definition they are not of Him.

(Although I give slack to humans since, unlike archon/power/principality/angel, humans don't "know" like they do, so sometimes contradictions to God from humans can be an honest mistake. Not with celestials, though; they know better.)

 

[bugkiller]

<snip>

So then you are not a New Covenant Christian?

Old Covenant then? If you reject the New Covenant.

Already responded to this spam post in another thread.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Even if he did, so what?

With all due respect to Paul, he has no authority overy the law of God - not to change, or delete any parts of it. He is human.

We aren't supposed to let any human dictate the trajectory of our salvation, save Christ.

Absolutely amazing way to throw out the NC.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is true - but we are supposed to hear the words of Scripture. If all the writers of scripture are merely giving "man's opinion" we do not have scripture at all.

Essentially what you're saying here is the NT by-in-large isn't the Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I agree.

But if it came down to something Paul said vs something God said, Paul loses miserably - that goes for all humans.

So if Paul actually was talking about us not having to follow commandments, but God never said so, then Paul loses, and is deemed an antichrist. I understand inspiration, but if you contradict God's commandments and word, your inspiration isn't from Him.

Nice dismissal of the NT and NC.

bugkiller

 

[tatteredsoul]

Nice dismissal of the NT and NC.

bugkiller

Ok. So if Paul contradicted God you would listen to Paul?

I am not throwing out anything except what contradicts the word of God. If that includes the entire NT and NC (Nicean creed?) the so be it. I am more than happy to align myself with God rather than men, the NC, and NT.

And I don't care who objects to it.

 

[bugkiller]

Ok. So if Paul contradicted God you would listen to Paul?

I am not throwing out anything except what contradicts the word of God. If that includes the entire NT and NC (Nicean creed?) the so be it. I am more than happy to align myself with God rather than men, the NC, and NT.

And I don't care who objects to it.

I don't believe Paul contradicted God while you do because you refuse to accept the NC and cling to the OC, well parts of both anyway.

bugkiller