Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

[Bob S]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your patience.

You are welcome. I hope you are not snowed in. Last year we were snowed in for 2 weeks. The Lord was/is good. We didn't miss a meal and kept warm.

I would submit that your view of keeping Torah is not correct., naturally tinged by a centuries old Christian bias, and Christian acceptance that the Pharisaical interpretation of Torah is the proper one - Which is ludicrous, because in every instance, Yeshua beat down that interpretation as being invalid.

I wouldn't know. What I do know is Israel was instructed from the beginning how to observe Torah. They failed from the getgo. God was patient although we read where He lost patience and had people stoned for what seems as minor intrusions. The old Testament is sketchy in many instances. Take for instance God, when He introduced the Sabbath to The Israelites told them to remain in their tents and rest in the Holy day. Soon we see this command going away and not very many instructions have been recorded. You say it takes many years to get the full meaning of the keeping of days Why would anyone want to spend all that time on a now defunct covenant? The Israelites over and over broke the covenant and finally God sent His Son to usher in the New Covenant. 2Cor 3:7-11 tells us that that first covenant was temporary. We know covenants last as long as both parties keep their part of the bargain. There is no reason to believe the old covenant is binding on anyone. It has faded, so why pretend we are doing something to please God by trying to do what the chosen could not do? I really do not understand why you choose to take the time by spending years to learn to do old covenant defunct obligations. Why would you not spend your time learning and doing the new and better covenant. Someone has fed you with all those extra obligations just like I was fed the fourth commandment which led me for years to be at odds with the rest of Christianity.

The fourth command was a ritual command sandwiched between commandments dealing with morality and became the guide for one nation, Israel. Paul in no uncertain words, in Gal 3, tells us that the law was until Jesus. Paul in not hard to understand in Gal or in 2Cor 3. I have observed over the years that some churches have to have some special differences from main line churches in order to draw certain people. For instance Mormons have many peculiar non Biblical beliefs, a prophet discoved something no one can prove, the gold tablets with all the weird writings. They spend most of their time trying to get good enough to go into the Salt Lake City temple. SDAs have ol Ellen White the prophet whose writings are equal to scripture and the Investigative Judgment where Jesus has been in a room in Heaven since 1844 sorting out who is worthy for Heaven. If one knows about Sabbath and refuses to get in line observing it as interpreted by them they will loose their eternal inheritance. JWs, well We know what a mess they teach. Some groups will not allow women to cut their hair or wear woman's slacks. Others have mysterious beliefs that have no bearing on salvation. They keep their thumbs on the members allowing them little leeway to lead their own lives. Why people fall for groups that believe we have to do something to be saved is beyond me. The scriptures sure doesn't put burdens on Christians. The plan of salvation is simple and it is a great pleasure to led people to Christ.

Now concerning Messianics, maybe you don't keep feasts and the weekly Sabbath to earn your way to Heaven, but you do obligate yourselves to doing old covenant rituals meant only for the Israelites as long as they upheld the now defunct covenant. From what you have wrote already I sense that you believe you have superior knowledge. Knowledge for what? You indicated you have a shovel for snow that keeps you fro exerting yourself. I say great, but some would not use the more convenient method because the snow shovel was made first. I recon that scenario to Messianics doing all those rituals when there is a new way to serve God. Praise the Lord for the new covenant.

This is not a matter of halfheartedness, but rather, either the obvious need for a learning curve, or that the proscription is impossible to perform:

Why harness a horse when I can push a button in the dash and ride in luxury,

If I were to convince you, and you had a change of mind, it would naturally take years for you to begin to walk in Torah, because it is a knowing... a way, and not the letter of the law - The letter of the law kills, as we all know. Do I keep Torah perfectly? No. But I am learning, and I desire to do better.

Brother I am 80 years old and to learn something that was temporary and for one nation, never meant for gentiles or Christians is not useful nor is it paying respects to my Savior who gave His live to fulfill the law so the man won't have to.

And as to the proscription impossible to perform: What if a man is far away from Jerusalem, and too poor to make the pilgrimage for the three feasts which must be kept at Jerusalem. What is he to do?

Party, party!

If your ox falls in a well on the Sabbath, do you not pull it out?

Mute question my friend. Where there is no Sabbath law there is no sin, right?

Christians have read in an absolute nature that the Bible itself denies. Again, Pharisaical.

You know, after contemplating your statement I agree. Above I gave a few examples. There are no perfect churches. Some are more demanding concerning worthless rituals than the rest.

Of course - maybe more so than you do, as I see the Master/disciple thing as the basis of the assembly (church). Every word out of the Master's mouth is truth to the disciple. Every commandment of the Master is sacrosanct. Here is another of his commands:

First of all the Master had an audience of Jews. Secondly the master never tried to teach anything that was not according to the law that they were under. Jesus was teaching things that are not part of the new covenant because at that point there was no new covenant. The plan of salvation from the foundation of the Earth has taken many twists and turns. It is an on going event and we are privy to most of the plan.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. No excuses, not one jot. If you think that Jesus did not fulfill all the law then if you have determined that you are grafted into Israel you are obligated to observe it all. Build Temples, revive the Levitical priesthood and do ALL the law requires. Guess what, Yep you will need to learn how to stone your brethren. Why oh why would anyone choose to go the route of the now defunctTorah
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Now, you might see this command as having been nullified - The avg. Christian discounts this as being before the cross. Yet all is *not*, most emphatically *not* fulfilled - Not only in the prophets, but in the law itself (I have already explained that the fall feasts' fulfillment is yet to come).

See above

In the reconciliation of the matter, I would see BOTH commandments - the one you offered as example, and the one I placed directly above - BOTH are true and valid! And that changes the perspective of the New Testament in profound ways. And that perspective changes the way one interprets.

Only before the Cross was your Matt 5:19 a law. If You are correct no one will inherit the New Earth. No one comes close to "keeping" Torah. In fact you have stated that you are not saved by being observant yet you quote observance as a salvation issue. You cannot have it both ways. I choose the new way.

I would submit that it is a rare thing for Christians to come at the Bible without preconceived ideas. All are biased toward their denominational or confessional traditions. I know it was incredibly hard for me to cast off traditions, once I realized they were present. Replacement Theology among the worst of them. It has blinded the churches for millennia.

It was hard for me to grasp scripture because I had been brainwashed for so many years. The Holy Spirit is gentle and after a while I started seeing the light among the cracks in the foundations of my brainwashing. I know it is not easy, but the rewards are outstanding.

You miss the point. I was not being accusatory. The Bible was written by Hebrews. Not understanding their customs, culture, and perspective, one misses much.

You do not understand. I know the culture very well. My father was Jew.

I have used the example of the disciple with this in mind. You are the disciple of a Rabbi. Don't you think it would be important to find out what that means?

What that means according to you and your faith? You have put your faith in a defunct Torah that my Rabbi came and did away with. I understand quite well my friend. I understand if we believe we must observe what Jesus came and saved the Jews from then we are not putting our faith is Him.

If one takes off the Rome colored glasses, and wipes the Greece from one's eyes, everything looks completely different.

Good one. Is that yours? If one takes off their Messianic colored glasses.... .

The expectation of the Hebrews according to the prophets... One of the many facets of Messiah is as the greatest prophet. Prophets are there to stand in the breach - Direct authority and direct word from the Father. Think about what that is for.

Jesus chose the Apostle Paul to tell the story of what Jesus revealed to him. Dismissing Paul as being hard to understand is no excuse fo not reading that Torah was until Christ. Christians are not under obligation to observe Israelite rituals. Paul makes that quite clear. If you would spent as much time trying to learn Paul's writings as you do Torah rituals, you would give up on the rituals.

We are assured that YHWH does not change. We are assured that his word will never come back to him empty.

Quite true, but the plan of salvation has many facets. It has gone through many covenants since Adam. All these covenants were for a reason. I would appear God has changed. He is Omnipotent. His plan changes as it was planned to change from the beginning. Holding on the premise that since God does not change thus we must observe His Torah made for Israel because the old testament said it was forever is ludicrous. It was and "if" covenant. If you will I will. If you do not the covenant is not forever. Only if you do your part..... .

No, Torah is many covenants. Edenic, Adamic, Noahdic, Abrahamic, Melchizedek, Mosaic, Davidic, just to name a few.

Are there more? I do not understand. Is it scriptural that the Torah covenant is all the rest combined? Where do you glean that from?

And also the Inheritance... All of these interact - The previous covenant(s) being rolled into the next.And some things certainly are conditional, but others are set in stone - Explicit (regardless of failure). It is nowhere near as straightforward as you have indicated.

Oh?

[roamer_1:] And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.​

You wish for me to post the ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple?

Never mind, since I know the old covenant is defunct it does not matter one way or the other.

Well, to begin with, Jerusalem is coming down here. How does that fit with what you see?

Yep, but my understanding is that until it does we will be together in mansions in Heaven.

So 'sin' is whatever feels bad to you? There is no further definition? Of course not. Torah is there so that we might know that we sin.

I am not sure at all that sin is defined by Torah. If it is then I sin by not bringing a dove for sacrifice. I sin by wearing cloth woven from more than one material. I sin by not stoning my brother because he breaks Sabbath rituals. Woops! I forgot I am not Sabbath observant. Ouch!

so that sin is defined. and so that we can tell when someone is feeding us a bill of goods - This very OP is an example of that: If the doctrine that you listen to is at odds with what YHWH explicitly defined as the Sabbath, which do you listen to, YHWH or man? By which standard do you judge those who are teaching you?

Hold the phone partner. There is no Sabbath law for Christians. Sabbath law was for Israel. It ended when there was no hope of reconciliation. It ended when the new one started. The new one does not have a Sabbath requirement. I sin not because I don't observe the Israelite only Sabbath requirement.

My standard is the Bible not what Messianics or SDAs or anyone else deem as standards. I have proved that the old covenant has ended.

Where do you think that circumcision v. uncircumcision comes from? Why is Goyim (Gentiles) a Jewish pejorative? This is a perfect example of something you miss if you look at the strict meaning of the word, without it's cultural significance.

That is above my pay grade.

 

[BobRyan]

I would submit that your view of keeping Torah is not correct., naturally tinged by a centuries old Christian bias, and Christian acceptance that the Pharisaical interpretation of Torah is the proper one - Which is ludicrous, because in every instance, Yeshua beat down that interpretation as being invalid.

This is a very good point. Christ condemned the Jewish leaders for their abuse of scripture in Mark 7:6-13. The Jews falsely accused Christ and His disciples of being at war against scripture in places like Mark 2:20-28.

Many modern Christians unwittingly join those accusers of Christ and of Paul - claiming that they were indeed at war against the Word of God found in the scriptures of that day.

But not all Christians do that.

For example --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others

 

[BobRyan]

Hold the phone partner. There is no Sabbath law for Christians. Sabbath law was for Israel. It ended when there was no hope of reconciliation. It ended when the new one started. The new one does not have a Sabbath requirement. I sin not because I don't observe the Israelite only Sabbath requirement

You have "quoted you" well in that case.

But the actual Bible says that the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-33, known to Paul and his readers in Romans 2:19-21 - still continues and is also "written on the heart and mind" for Christians under the NEW Covenant.

What is more Eph 6:2 proves that this unit of LAW that is included in the standard of NT moral law - includes the TEN Commandments.

 

[bugkiller]

Annecdotally you "found one" - that is mere "fluff"

Statistically it is one of the fastest growing churches in America and the 5th largest church in the world - having grown by over 400% since 1980.

hehehehe You believe those statistics? Oh well.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

BobRyan said: ↑
Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!



Because in Heb 8:6-10 it is STILL the covenant with the "House of Judah and the House of Israel" for as Romans 2 points out "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

Then Acts is a fraud.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
BobRyan said: ↑
Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

Because in Heb 8:6-10 it is STILL the covenant with the "House of Judah and the House of Israel" for as Romans 2 points out "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

Then Acts is a fraud.
bugkiller

Which part of Acts is a fraud if the rest of the Bible is true???

Where do you come up with that fluff?

 

[bugkiller]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------



Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

Which one if any of those above kept the 7th day Sabbath?

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --




Apparently D.L. Moody and R.C. Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon DID study the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:610

And its very apparent you are abusing their writings.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

BobRyan said: ↑
BobRyan said: ↑
Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

Because in Heb 8:6-10 it is STILL the covenant with the "House of Judah and the House of Israel" for as Romans 2 points out "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"



Which part of Acts is a fraud if the rest of the Bible is true???

Where do you come up with that fluff?

May I suggest you read it? There's no proof that the house of Cornelius for instance observed the law or the Sabbath. Yet Peter said they (Gentiles) received the same gift of the Holy Spirit as the 120. My guess if I were to believe you is Peter is lying.

Is the Philippian jailer a Jew? Was he told to observe the law in order to be or prove he was saved? Did Paul tell a half truth?

bugkiller

 

[roamer_1]

You are welcome. I hope you are not snowed in. Last year we were snowed in for 2 weeks. The Lord was/is good. We didn't miss a meal and kept warm.

naw... pretty hard for me to get snowed in - I am right off a secondary road, so the plows keep that alright... And I own my own plow (on a pickup), which is the lion's share. It's not all that bad, but that it keeps on coming, and I am running out of places to put it... I'll have to go down to the ranch and get the loader to stack it up if we get much more.

And I'm a country boy... Mountain bred - 20's/30's is t-shirt weather, and there's enough food here to last a year or better... and gas and/or wood heat. I'll make do... so don't worry about me none. Thanks for your best wishes though... It's appreciated.

I wouldn't know. What I do know is Israel was instructed from the beginning how to observe Torah. They failed from the getgo.

Yeah, but then, so do Christians, and for the exact same reasons.

The old Testament is sketchy in many instances. Take for instance God, when He introduced the Sabbath to The Israelites told them to remain in their tents and rest in the Holy day. Soon we see this command going away and not very many instructions have been recorded.

It didn't go away. It's still the same. Unless I go to a service with SDA friends, I stick at home, Friday night to Saturday night. Then, on Saturday night, as is the custom (Havdalah, which eventually became the 'Lord's Supper', a far cry from the ceremony today, btw), we do a potluck somewhere, break the bread and wine, and then have a family style dinner, with friends and family, or the same but more like a 'movie night' environment. This is a celebratory extension of the Sabbath, and it usually finishes between 10-11pm.

Does that mean I cannot take a walk, for instance? Of course not -The whole idea is rest and worship... There is a point on the mountain behind my house - There's a bench up there,with a beautiful view. I'll often take a walk up there to sit and read the Bible. Nothing wrong with doing something like that.

As I said, Christians have taken a Pharisaical view wrt Sabbath, but in truth, it is a joyous and restful time I look forward to with anticipation. And it is easily kept.

You say it takes many years to get the full meaning of the keeping of days Why would anyone want to spend all that time on a now defunct covenant?

It is not defunct. Yeshua said to keep the law (which is all that matters), John said to keep the law, James said to keep the law. And yes, even Paul said to keep the law. And we have examples after the cross. Paul going to synagogues to teach on the Sabbath... Paul shaving his head at the temple (completing a Nazirite vow), Paul hurrying to keep Passover and Shavuot... Peter kept kosher (meats and sheets vision). Most of the aspects of Torah are taught - at least touched upon - in the New Testament, thus nullifying your argument.

Why would you not spend your time learning and doing the new and better covenant.

...In which I am free to do anything EXCEPT being obedient to YHWH by keeping Torah, apparently.

Someone has fed you with all those extra obligations [...]

No, I arrived relatively where I am many years ago - long before the current Messianic wave. I study the prophecy, and it was a deep study of the prophetic qualities of the Hebrew Inheritance that finally put me where I am. I wound up close to what is called Two-House theology in Messianic circles. When I got to there, I was quite alone. By five years later I knew just a handful of others, and now, the Messianic movement is burgeoning. It has been edifying for me, that so many others are also being shown what I have seen. But as for me, I got where I am with the Bible - At least for the first 10 years.

The fourth command was a ritual command sandwiched between commandments dealing with morality and became the guide for one nation, Israel.

Uh-oh... Smells like superdispensationalism...

Now concerning Messianics, maybe you don't keep feasts and the weekly Sabbath to earn your way to Heaven, but you do obligate yourselves to doing old covenant rituals meant only for the Israelites as long as they upheld the now defunct covenant.

Riiight... Do anything except keep Torah... Do you see how that looks to me? Do anything except be obedient... That lie is the same one that has been happening ever since since the Garden.

From what you have wrote already I sense that you believe you have superior knowledge.

Nah... Just a different way of seeing things.

[...] there is a new way to serve God. Praise the Lord for the new covenant.

According to YHWH, there is no 'new way'.

Why harness a horse when I can push a button in the dash and ride in luxury,

Oh, you're talking to the wrong guy for that analogy. If I had my druthers, I'd be on a horse right now... about 50 miles from town.

Mute question my friend. Where there is no Sabbath law there is no sin, right?

No, then there is just no knowledge of the Sabbath or the sin. The sabbath is still there, as it as been since the Creation... It is from the Edenic covenant... only ratified into the law. I can point to sacrifice in Cain and Abel... And Noah (how did he know 'clean and unclean'?) Many indications show Torah going all the way back... Which is why it is not just 'the law'.

First of all the Master had an audience of Jews. Secondly the master never tried to teach anything that was not according to the law that they were under. Jesus was teaching things that are not part of the new covenant because at that point there was no new covenant.

So Yeshua comes down, gets in a meat suit, preaches for three years about stuff that He knew was going to be worthless the minute he dies? What kind of sense is that?

No excuses, not one jot. If you think that Jesus did not fulfill all the law then if you have determined that you are grafted into Israel you are obligated to observe it all.

No, I can only observe what is for me to observe. All I can do is obey what I can. and when I fail, there is Yeshua... the 'better blood'.

Build Temples, revive the Levitical priesthood and do ALL the law requires.

I am not a priest -not my job.

Guess what, Yep you will need to learn how to stone your brethren.

First, I am not a judge -not my job
Second, as most Christians do, you miss the point like a Pharisee - 'Cast the first stone' is Torah. What now?

Only before the Cross was your Matt 5:19 a law. If You are correct no one will inherit the New Earth. No one comes close to "keeping" Torah.

That is what Yeshua is for - I can miss, and try again. And again, your view of Torah is skewed. Even Yeshua did not keep *ALL* of Torah - As an example, there are parts of it that are commandments only for women - They didn't apply to him.

In fact you have stated that you are not saved by being observant yet you quote observance as a salvation issue.

No, I most emphatically did not state any such thing. It is an obedience issue. I keep Torah because I love YHWH. Works are not (nor have they ever been) salvific.

The commandment from Yeshua to keep Torah was *not* salvific, but meritorious. Those who don't keep it are lesser in the Kingdom.
Those who do keep it are greater in the Kingdom.
So salvation is still only by Yeshua... Grace thru faith. Period.

You do not understand. I know the culture very well. My father was Jew.

That may actually make it harder for you than most - Halakhic law is what Yeshua tore down. The hardest thing to pry away from my Messianic Jewish brethren is their dependence upon the Wisdom of the Elders.

Good one. Is that yours? If one takes off their Messianic colored glasses.... .

Yes, as matter of fact

Jesus chose the Apostle Paul to tell the story of what Jesus revealed to him. Dismissing Paul as being hard to understand is no excuse fo not reading that Torah was until Christ.

Hmmm... More superdispensationalism...

Paul makes that quite clear. If you would spent as much time trying to learn Paul's writings as you do Torah rituals, you would give up on the rituals.

I think it the other way around. I don't think one can understand Paul at all without a reasonable understanding of Torah. I take that 'law until Christ' thing far more personally than you do - The law is the school teacher for me until I can find Messiah. YHWH Said there was only one way. He told us the one way. Everyone else says there's a different way. So who do I believe? I will believe YHWH.

the plan of salvation has many facets. It has gone through many covenants since Adam. All these covenants were for a reason. I would appear God has changed. He is Omnipotent. His plan changes as it was planned to change from the beginning.

YHWH Himself says He does not change. YHWH Himself said His word does not change. YHWH himself said Torah is forever. Yeshua is the Word made flesh. How can the Word made flesh differ from the Word as written?

Holding on the premise that since God does not change thus we must observe His Torah made for Israel because the old testament said it was forever is ludicrous. It was and "if" covenant. If you will I will. If you do not the covenant is not forever. Only if you do your part...

Then the prophets are no good, and the prophecy has crumbled. And in that, there is no proof of God.

Are there more? I do not understand. Is it scriptural that the Torah covenant is all the rest combined? Where do you glean that from?

Torah is ALL of the first five books. That is 'Moses'. It contains ALL of the covenants.

I am not sure at all that sin is defined by Torah. If it is then I sin by not bringing a dove for sacrifice. I sin by wearing cloth woven from more than one material. I sin by not stoning my brother because he breaks Sabbath rituals. Woops! I forgot I am not Sabbath observant. Ouch!

yep - providing you understand. And that it seems strange to you should be telling.

Hold the phone partner. There is no Sabbath law for Christians.

There is no law at all, except the Big Two... according to what you have told me.
But what you may not know is that the 'big two' are Torah. The big two are a summary of the ten, and the ten are a summary of the whole. The 'big two' were known to the rabbis. That they are true is without doubt But then one must consider the 'how'...

HOW do I love YHWH with all my heart, mind, soul,and strength ?
and HOW do I love my neighbor as myself?

Torah can answer that.

It seems, Bob, that we are at an impasse.

My standard is the Bible not what Messianics or SDAs or anyone else deem as standards. I have proved that the old covenant has ended.

Not to me you haven't.

 

[roamer_1]

Hello BobRyan.

This is a very good point. Christ condemned the Jewish leaders for their abuse of scripture in Mark 7:6-13. The Jews falsely accused Christ and His disciples of being at war against scripture in places like Mark 2:20-28.

Many modern Christians unwittingly join those accusers of Christ and of Paul - claiming that they were indeed at war against the Word of God found in the scriptures of that day.

'The scriptures of that day' is an excellent point of your own. What they had was Tanakh - The Hebrew Old Testament in a proto-Masoretic form. I would firmly submit that if one cannot find messiah in those very scriptures - All over them - Then one has not found Messiah as one should. There is the milk and then there is the meat.

I have had a pretty good time with SDA folks. I get my freezing hens from such, who are pretty much vegetarian - They use the chickens for the garden (and maybe the eggs, but I am guessing)... When I go over there to buy them to butcher, I always get set down on the porch for some sweet tea and some Bible debate. Pretty knowledgeable folks, overall - and our disagreements are few.

It sure is fun to talk with folks who enjoy alternate views and do it pleasantly - and we sharpen each other (for hours)

 

[Bob S]

It seems, Bob, that we are at an impasse.

If you would only have admitted that you do not believe in the writings of Paul and the book of Hebrews I would have reconsidered even beginning a debate with you. If you cannot have faith that the New Testament is God's word to Christians then all I can do for you is pray that the Holy Spirit becomes your guide. Since I believe all scripture is inspired I remain steadfast In Jesus and the New Covenant given to all mankind at Calvary. God bless you my friend, Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hello BobRyan.
'The scriptures of that day' is an excellent point of your own. What they had was Tanakh - The Hebrew Old Testament in a proto-Masoretic form. I would firmly submit that if one cannot find messiah in those very scriptures - All over them - Then one has not found Messiah as one should. There is the milk and then there is the meat.

In Luke 16 Jesus said 'if they will not hear Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the DEAD" -

And of course - Christ arose from the dead.

So also in Mark 7:6-13 it is "Moses said" and 'The Word of God" and "The Commandments of God" that Christ said - are all the same thing -- the scripture that condemned the "traditions of man" in that case.

And of course 2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God" where "Scripture" in 2Tim 3 - is that which Paul said Timothy was studying as a child.

The bible does not slice itself up into 10 or 15 books to be read by Christians and everything else "useless".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

Because in Heb 8:6-10 it is STILL the covenant with the "House of Judah and the House of Israel" for as Romans 2 points out "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

Then Acts is a fraud.
bugkiller

Which part of Acts is a fraud if the rest of the Bible is true???

Where do you come up with that fluff?

May I suggest you read it? There's no proof that the house of Cornelius for instance observed the law or the Sabbath.

Red herring.

No "proof' that Cornelius honored his parents, did not covet, --- when one wants to make stuff up like "we have exhaustive account of everything Cornelius did" -- and we all know it.

The arguments you make are "from the void of what the text says" --- "The text did not mention flowers so Cornelius never saw a flower" -- arguing "from the void" doesn't work.

 

[BobRyan]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

If you would only recognize that you have bound yourself to a couple of old cold stones, and I should add ellen White, that were/are the ministry of death 2Cor3 and all of her books, when you could be responding to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Millions of SDAs are ...

Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

seeing the Light and are running from Adventism.

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --

Apparently ol Dwight didn't study the new covenant

Apparently D.L. Moody and R.C. Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon DID study the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:610

And its very apparent you are abusing their writings.
bugkiller

Not in "real life". In real life I quote them.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

 

[bugkiller]

naw... pretty hard for me to get snowed in - I am right off a secondary road, so the plows keep that alright... And I own my own plow (on a pickup), which is the lion's share. It's not all that bad, but that it keeps on coming, and I am running out of places to put it... I'll have to go down to the ranch and get the loader to stack it up if we get much more.

And I'm a country boy... Mountain bred - 20's/30's is t-shirt weather, and there's enough food here to last a year or better... and gas and/or wood heat. I'll make do... so don't worry about me none. Thanks for your best wishes though... It's appreciated.



Yeah, but then, so do Christians, and for the exact same reasons.



It didn't go away. It's still the same. Unless I go to a service with SDA friends, I stick at home, Friday night to Saturday night. Then, on Saturday night, as is the custom (Havdalah, which eventually became the 'Lord's Supper', a far cry from the ceremony today, btw), we do a potluck somewhere, break the bread and wine, and then have a family style dinner, with friends and family, or the same but more like a 'movie night' environment. This is a celebratory extension of the Sabbath, and it usually finishes between 10-11pm.

Does that mean I cannot take a walk, for instance? Of course not -The whole idea is rest and worship... There is a point on the mountain behind my house - There's a bench up there,with a beautiful view. I'll often take a walk up there to sit and read the Bible. Nothing wrong with doing something like that.

As I said, Christians have taken a Pharisaical view wrt Sabbath, but in truth, it is a joyous and restful time I look forward to with anticipation. And it is easily kept.



It is not defunct. Yeshua said to keep the law (which is all that matters), John said to keep the law, James said to keep the law. And yes, even Paul said to keep the law. And we have examples after the cross. Paul going to synagogues to teach on the Sabbath... Paul shaving his head at the temple (completing a Nazirite vow), Paul hurrying to keep Passover and Shavuot... Peter kept kosher (meats and sheets vision). Most of the aspects of Torah are taught - at least touched upon - in the New Testament, thus nullifying your argument.

This is news to me. Would you mind giving the Scripture references to back up the above?

bugkiller

 

[roamer_1]

This is news to me. Would you mind giving the Scripture references to back up the above?

Which what are you referring to precisely? You have quoted a fair portion of my post.

 

[bugkiller]

In Luke 16 Jesus said 'if they will not hear Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the DEAD" -

So who is the they in your verse? Isn't it Israel? Your intention using this passage is we're to listen to Moses and not the writings of the NT.

And of course - Christ arose from the dead.

So also in Mark 7:6-13 it is "Moses said" and 'The Word of God" and "The Commandments of God" that Christ said - are all the same thing -- the scripture that condemned the "traditions of man" in that case.

And of course 2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God" where "Scripture" in 2Tim 3 - is that which Paul said Timothy was studying as a child.

unfortunately I don't think you really believe the above. Great cover though.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Which what are you referring to precisely? You have quoted a fair portion of my post.

That would be the statement right above my response.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------



Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.



The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --




Apparently D.L. Moody and R.C. Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon DID study the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:610



Not in "real life". In real life I quote them.

You sure do. Problem is none of them observed the law, specifically the 4th.

bugkiller