Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[BobRyan]

Maybe this ^ explains the eternal popularity of this question. Those who keep Sunday neither deny that there is a Sabbath or counsel that one is not to respect the rest, etc. that the Commandment attaches to it.

The "Sabbatarians" want to make out that the rest of us have overthrown the Commandment because of looking at it slightly differently--and quite in accord with God's word on the subject.

But if their approach were applied across the board, we'd have also to say that the rest of the Commandment can have only the meaning or the application specified by their own denomination. Then we'd be arguing over what is murder, exactly. Like those "animal rights" types who think it's hypocritical of us to oppose murder but permit the eating of hamburgers. Maybe it's manslaughter instead of murder? And what precisely counts as honoring one's father and mother, and what isn't good enough to constitute real honor?

You argue that the pro-Sunday group that claims to fully affirm all Ten Commandments - even the Sabbath Commandment in their pro-sunday position should not be questioned by a close look at the scriptures to "see if" those things are so - to see if the Bible really says "remember to keep holy the first day of the week" or "the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" or 'we now come together for worship every first day of the week - no longer every 7th day" etc.

What Catholic tradition in the dark ages replacing the clear statements in the Word of God - could NOT have been promoted under those rules?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Or "we no longer observe the 7th day as the Sabbath - rather we gather for worship every week day 1 as our keeping Sabbath in the New Testament".

Do you have such a text?? (I know of none).

Because until then - we do have the NT text in Mark 7 saying not to edit/tweek/modify the Commandments of God via tradition.
=============================



Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

==========================

How would it be considered 'editing' the 10 Commandments, since Christians are not under the Law at all, for Christians to want their holy day for the Lord to be Sunday?

I don't get it?

 

[Albion]

Jesus did not do away with the Commandments, even while he freed us from the consequences of failing to keep them 100% of the time. That's an important distinction. But on the other hand, moving to Sunday worship is explicitly permitted, according to the New Testament, so it's not that the Christian churches are saying that keeping holy the Sabbath is of no importance anymore.

In fact, the fundamentalist mindset of the Seventh-day folks is rather funny, considering that the exact day of the week is ultra important to them, but considering how many times the calendar that they and the rest of us use has been changed, with days left out, leap years accounted for, and so on, that no one can say for sure that today is the same day as it was in antiquity anyway.

 

[bugkiller]

Actually I would never argue against a NT text saying "week day 1 is now the Sabbath" or "the 4th commandment is now changed to apply to week day 1 instead of the 7th day" or "week day 1 is the LORD's Day and the new Sabbath". OR "remember to keep holy week day 1 - six days shall you labor and do you all your work but the first day is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God".

Or "we no longer observe the 7th day as the Sabbath - rather we gather for worship every week day 1 as our keeping Sabbath in the New Testament".

Do you have such a text?? (I know of none).

Because until then - we do have the NT text in Mark 7 saying not to edit/tweek/modify the Commandments of God via tradition.
=============================

Suppose for example you had

"week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
and "we gather for worship every week-day-1"

I would think you had two texts that finally give some support for week-day-1 as a holy day. And to prove that it is not 'another Holy Day' but rather the NEW day for Sabbath you might want to add 'and of course week-day-1 is the Sabbath".

A perfect combination of 3 texts... for which you have not even one of them.

fortunately we DO have this -

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

==========================

Now the Jews of course would never have claimed that they had deleted or done away with the 5th commandment - simply because they had tweaked it (by implication) a tiny bit by adding their own rules about what is CORBAN.




It is left as "an exercise for the reader" to see if that resolves the problem you have in the text -- at all.

Bible avoidance of the details in that discussion is not the great solution to the problem you seem to have at first imagined it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

What text are you talking about - your quote from MK 7?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I have been claiming that for a long time on this board (when it comes to the "majority" of pro-sunday scholarship) - but the highest volume of posts against it - come from pro-Sunday proponents that flatly reject the core of what you are saying. So then I and a few others have to defend the POV you are stating instead of have the luxury of promoting our own real "Sabbatarian" agenda.

I agree with 6 of the 7 points - but many/most of the pro-sunday posts here - oppose all 7 points.

So for example notice the flocking of "complaints" from the pro-sunday groups here - when I quote those pro-sunday sources making your very same point.

The remaining section of your post is "debatable".

============================

the thread title says that these obvious pro-Ten Commandment facts in the Bible are also affirmed by pro-Sunday scholarship.

How can that possibly be?

First a summary of the pro-Sunday scholarship statements affirming the TEN Commandments.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.



A large number of pro-sunday posts agree with point 7 when they reject 6 of your 7 points listed - they agree that the 4th commandment is not to be changed at all because for them it is "deleted just as it is" - nailed to the cross just as it is.

you and others on the other hand would argue that re-pointing the 4th commandment to "the first day" rather than "the 7th day" does not harm it at all but leaves it fully in force, fully binding just as it was before - though now 'changed' to point to week-day-1 - as you continue to affirm that all TEN commandments are still binding on all the saints just as they were in the OT.

in Christ,

Bob

The only thing you do here at CF is promote the "sabbatarian (read SDA) agenda."

bugkiller

 

[ToBeLoved]

You argue that the pro-Sunday group that claims to fully affirm all Ten Commandments - even the Sabbath Commandment in their pro-sunday position should not be questioned by a close look at the scriptures to "see if" those things are so - to see if the Bible really says "remember to keep holy the first day of the week" or "the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" or 'we now come together for worship every first day of the week - no longer every 7th day" etc.

So this is totally taken out of context.

The Bereans checked the scripture to see if what they were being taught was the truth, what you state as to 'see if' those things are so.

Also, it was in the New Testament, after Jesus Christ's death, because there were people preaching the Law to the new Christians.

Do you see the resemblance?

 

[bugkiller]

How would it be considered 'editing' the 10 Commandments, since Christians are not under the Law at all, for Christians to want their holy day for the Lord to be Sunday?

I don't get it?

I want to know as well.

bugkiller

 

[FredVB]

So, we are to really believe that Yahweh God said what was to test "us" his people, and it didn't mean it was meant and important? You and others don't have a day of rest meant for you? Do you just never rest? If you tell others not to have that, is this with love? Love is not precluded with obedience, don't you know?

Modern Christian theology is, God cares about every command except the Sabbath, and the only reason it was still being kept in the NT is because those poor souls didnt quite get the memo from Jesus or Paul that they were to stop immediately and have no day or rest at all and now just to worship for a few hours on Sunday morning and that is the whole day of rest. Remember, any part of a day counts as a whole day right...isnt that how you get a good Friday to Sunday morning death to resurrection being equal to 3 days/3 nights lol

I would be interested in seeing someone in old testament Israel trying to use that argument to observe a part of the Sabbath of their choice. What would have happened? What would Yahweh say to it? What did Jesus say showing that would be enough?

I dont care what others do, im only trying to understand why neither the Lord or the apostles ever commanded OT Sabbath keeping, and why Paul says we are free from the law in Galatians 5, and why he wrote Romans 14 as well. Love doesn't mean i must observe a command that i was never given does it? God writes his law in our hearts and minds. I dont feel compelled to observe any holy day at all. Every day is alike to me. I can do good everyday just as Christ did on Sabbath, i can rest in Gods spirit everyday as well. Im not the only one who says that Sabbath is a test. MJ and SDA say it as well, if im not mistaken. Im not forcibly asserting that its a test, but i believe it may be. However, i believe that its not a test to see of if we Observe OT Sabbath law, but the law off the spirit instead.

2 Corithians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified

The law believers, only believers, are freed from is the judgment and penalty, with having Christ in their lives by faith for the only effective high priest, sacrifice, and way to be made clean in the essential way, who was bearing the penalty for us. Believers are not to be judging each other. We who are believers are called personally, in our growth, to seek Yahweh God's will in everything. The commandments show what is good and right. You might say you are not given the commandment to serve only Yahweh, and have no other gods before Yahweh. Would you still not do that? And what I find Jesus has said doesn't make exception with Sabbath, but there is clarity that doing good on the Sabbath is proper, with it not for doing business. If you really love as God commands, you will do such from the heart. You can certainly rest in God's Spirit on other days. But any believers who would be seeking God's higher will should do so, and not be judged by other believers for it. And others should not be told not to rest for the Sabbath or kept from it, indeed. Not the least one.

Living by the Spirit, with faith in Christ, is needed in these things, and there should always be love, to God overall, and to others, and not just saying it. It should grow a lot more.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would be interested in seeing someone in old testament Israel trying to use that argument to observe a part of the Sabbath of their choice. What would have happened? What would Yahweh say to it? What did Jesus say showing that would be enough?

The Old Testament is under the Old Covenant and the New Testament (after Jesus death) are under the New Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant, the Law MUST be kept.

Under the New Covenant, Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and conquered sin.

Two completely different scenarios.

 

[Bob S]

I would be interested in seeing someone in old testament Israel trying to use that argument to observe a part of the Sabbath of their choice. What would have happened? What would Yahweh say to it? What did Jesus say showing that would be enough?



The law believers, only believers, are freed from is the judgment and penalty, with having Christ in their lives by faith for the only effective high priest, sacrifice, and way to be made clean in the essential way, who was bearing the penalty for us. Believers are not to be judging each other. We who are believers are called personally, in our growth, to seek Yahweh God's will in everything. The commandments show what is good and right. You might say you are not given the commandment to serve only Yahweh, and have no other gods before Yahweh. Would you still not do that? And what I find Jesus has said doesn't make exception with Sabbath, but there is clarity that doing good on the Sabbath is proper, with it not for doing business. If you really love as God commands, you will do such from the heart. You can certainly rest in God's Spirit on other days. But any believers who would be seeking God's higher will should do so, and not be judged by other believers for it. And others should not be told not to rest for the Sabbath or kept from it, indeed. Not the least one.

Living by the Spirit, with faith in Christ, is needed in these things, and there should always be love, to God overall, and to others, and not just saying it. It should grow a lot more.

Sabbath is not a moral law. It was a ritual law given only to Israel. I demanded that Israel commemorate their release from bondage in Egypt Deut 5. It was a temporary law (2Cor 3:7-11) because Israel didn't not keep their part of the covenant given at Sinai. There is no evidence that Sabbath was ever part of any nations laws. God rested from His creation on the 7th day, but Jesus boldly proclaimed that God works every day. Men boldly proclaim that the Sabbath started in Eden and that the Antediluvians kept Sabbath. How about boldly showing us any history that God ever anyplace asked anyone to observe any day. Even if you could that would not mean that Sabbath is a relevant part of the Christian's life.

 

[FredVB]

The Old Testament is under the Old Covenant and the New Testament (after Jesus death) are under the New Covenant.
Under the Old Covenant, the Law MUST be kept.
Under the New Covenant, Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and conquered sin.
Two completely different scenarios.

And so we go around, when I make good biblical points, they won't be argued, and one not agreeing will use under the law as an argument, though I clarify every other post on this subject that with salvation, I am not under the law, and never suggested it.

Sabbath is not a moral law. It was a ritual law given only to Israel. I demanded that Israel commemorate their release from bondage in Egypt Deut 5. It was a temporary law (2Cor 3:7-11) because Israel didn't not keep their part of the covenant given at Sinai. There is no evidence that Sabbath was ever part of any nations laws. God rested from His creation on the 7th day, but Jesus boldly proclaimed that God works every day. Men boldly proclaim that the Sabbath started in Eden and that the Antediluvians kept Sabbath. How about boldly showing us any history that God ever anyplace asked anyone to observe any day. Even if you could that would not mean that Sabbath is a relevant part of the Christian's life.

It is moral when you tell others what to do regarding it. Isaiah 56:6-8

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Testament is under the Old Covenant and the New Testament (after Jesus death) are under the New Covenant. .

You have "quoted you well" - but in the actual Bible - both Old Covenant and New Covenant are in BOTH OT and NT.

The Old Covenant is of the form "obey and live" and all those under it are "lost" -- it is the covenant of death. IN it the LAW remains external - on tablets of stone - condemning all mankind as sinners -- as it still does to this very day -- see Rom 3:19-21.

The NEW Covenant of Jer 31:3133 is in the OT even in Deut 6:6 - and has the LAW of God " written on the heart and mind" - under the new birth.

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath is not a moral law.

You continue to "quote you" as your "source" -- so then ... you have "an opinion" a speculation on this subject.

But in the Bible "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4 - EVEN in the NT.

And rebellion against the WORD of God - is immoral, is sin as James 2 reminds us... as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13.

We will have to go with the Bible on this one... not man-made speculation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You continue to "quote you" as your "source" -- so then ... you have "an opinion" a speculation on this subject.

But in the Bible "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4 - EVEN in the NT.

And rebellion against the WORD of God - is immoral, is sin as James 2 reminds us... as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13.

We will have to go with the Bible on this one... not man-made speculation.

So, when did you stop sinning? It seems to me that you and your SDA brethren are very busy transgressing the Law day in and day out, unless you have utterly deceived yourselves into believing that the LAW consists of only ten select commandments. Even then, you transgress the fourth commandment egregiously.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You have "quoted you well" - but in the actual Bible - both Old Covenant and New Covenant are in BOTH OT and NT.

The Old Covenant is of the form "obey and live" and all those under it are "lost" -- it is the covenant of death. IN it the LAW remains external - on tablets of stone - condemning all mankind as sinners -- as it still does to this very day -- see Rom 3:19-21.

The Old Covenant is in the New Testament to testify to what the Law was and that that Jesus freed us from the Law.

Your example in Romans 19-21 when looking at a few more verses and putting it in context compares it to what we now have in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. So it is only used as a contrast to the New Covenant.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

 

[Bob S]

And so we go around, when I make good biblical points, they won't be argued, and one not agreeing will use under the law as an argument, though I clarify every other post on this subject that with salvation, I am not under the law, and never suggested it.



It is moral when you tell others what to do regarding it. Isaiah 56:6-8

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Picking verses that have nothing to do with the subject doesn't make the Sabbath a moral commandment. Sabbath like all of the days God gave only to Israel were ritual. They had no moral bearing on how we treat God or our fellow man. They were made to remember.

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Covenant is in the New Testament to testify to what the Law was and that that Jesus freed us from the Law.

Your example in Romans 19-21 when looking at a few more verses and putting it in context compares it to what we now have in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. So it is only used as a contrast to the New Covenant.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

In fact -- ALL have sinned even according to Rom 3 .. not "all used to sin".
IN fact "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 ..not "used to be".
In fact "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 ... not 'what USED to matter"
In fact "the SAINTs KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12... not "used to keep"
"It is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justIFIED" Rom 2:13 . not 'used to be justified'


Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

It did that in OT times.

IT continued to do that in Paul's day.

All sinners are to this very day condemned to the lake of Fire - second death if they do not accept the Gospel.

SAME as with the OT people -- either they could be among the OT saints of HEB 11 (Some of whom were taken directly to heaven without dying) - or they could be among the OT lost.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Picking verses that have nothing to do with the subject doesn't make the Sabbath a moral commandment .

Here is the "subject" then ... and an example of the "texts" for 'the subject'.

======================================= from page 1

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandm[FONT=&quot]ent sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the ending concluding segment - that might help shed even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath is not a moral law.

You continue to "quote you" as your "source" -- so then ... you have "an opinion" a speculation on this subject.

But in the Bible "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4 - EVEN in the NT.

And rebellion against the WORD of God - is immoral, is sin as James 2 reminds us... as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13.

We will have to go with the Bible on this one... not man-made speculation.

So, when did you stop sinning?

How much of the Bible are you willing to ignore until "Bob is sinless"???

How quickly the Protestant Reformation would have died if such logic were valid.

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that you and your SDA brethren are very busy transgressing the Law day in and day out, unless you have utterly deceived yourselves into believing that the LAW consists of only ten select commandments. Even then, you transgress the fourth commandment egregiously.

What a pack of accusations "in place of" Bible study.

Here is some Bible study.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest (remnant) of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.