The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes He tells Peter to feed His sheep not because Peter is the first pope or the Rock but because Peter had the faith as in he was the first to know the true identity of Christ. Christ is the Rock NOT Peter.

He asks Peter 3 times if he loved Him because Peter denied him 3 times...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Even if each of those is true, it doesn't mean that every one of Peter's own successors in Rome is to basically be the emperor of every other Christian. After all, in 40 AD, Jerusalem was the center of Christianity and James was the bishop there. In Acts at the Council of Jerusalem, James is the one who states the final decision, which Peter had only previously proposed.

Um, that's how councils often work. As a leader, you expect Peter to do everything? Even today, when the pope comes to town, the bishop of the place is still the ordinary. But the Corinthians sent a request on a topic to the pope, Clement, as if he were the authority, and he responded, as if he were the authority.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Peter and his successors lead the Church. The Church is the body of Christ.

Which Church do you think Jesus started? Who leads it on earth while we await the return of Jesus?

The Church began IN JERUSALEM...NOT ROME. This is FACT.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And Rome fell away while Orthodoxy stayed with Jesus.

Not really. I know there were mutual faults, but Rome was left to take care of Rome when Constantine moved his capital to Constantinople.
After the western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476, the eastern half continued under the title of the Byzantine Empire and was headquartered in Constantinople. The patriarch of that city had jurisdiction over the patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, and served under the emperor, who ruled those lands with military might. In the East, the emperor wielded tremendous influence in church affairs. Some emperors even claimed to be equal in authority to the twelve apostles, and as such claimed to have the power to appoint the patriarch of Constantinople. Although the two offices were legally autonomous, in practice the patriarch served at the emperor’s pleasure. Many patriarchs of Constantinople were good and holy bishops who ruled well and resisted imperial encroachments on church matters, but it is difficult to withstand the designs of power-hungry or meddlesome emperors with armed soldiers at their disposal.

The patriarch often attempted to bolster his position in the universal Church to give himself more leverage in dealing with the emperor, and this usually brought him into conflict with Rome.

During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.

Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality. The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/eastern-orthodoxy

 

[Thursday]

How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not? The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible

That's not what the bible teaches.

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Matt 18
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

[Thursday]

The Church began IN JERUSALEM...NOT ROME. This is FACT.

But it was always the Catholic Church, led by the apostles and their successors.

The Catholic Church did start in Jerusalem at Pentecost.

 

[Thursday]

Because Rome was but ONE patriarchate in the West among MANY others in the East. Your Pope was a Bishop just like all the others.

But Jesus made Peter the leader of the Church, and the early Christians acknowledged that Peter and his successors led the Church. This was known and stated even by Bishops in the east.

 

[Thursday]

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church.

Jesus only started one Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't know what this supposed no obstacles thing is about.
While we may be closer to RCS than, say, to most Protestants, there is a huge practical obstacle, the RC version of papal supremacy whereby the pope becomes the de facto emperor of every patriarch so that Orthodox lose the right to disagree with the pope on anything.

This is a mischaracterization. Bishops disagree with the pope all the time. Just look at the Bishops Conferences of Canada in the 80's and the US int he 80's and 90'. The pope never changed, but the Bishops practically did what they wanted to do.

Just like a bishop can tell a priest what theology not to teach or how to serve a mass, the RC pope claims power to dictate the same things to any EO if they reunite under papal supremacy. THAT IS A HUGE OBSTACLE because it De facto means giving up any final right to assert orthodoxy against the pope if the pope and the EOs disagree on anything in the future.

See above. Bishops rule their dioceses in matters of faith and morals. They seldom interfere with parishes.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That's not what the bible teaches.

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Matt 18
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Oh...really? So what "church" is Paul talking about? The Roman Catholic Church or the church found in the new testament?

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[Thursday]

The answer is simple – the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form. At the same time, it is easy to see how false doctrine could creep into a church that only had access to the Book of Galatians, for example.

But the Church was unified in doctrine due to the authority of the apostles and their successors.

Unity was attained under the pope, as Jesus intended.

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

 

[Thursday]

Oh...really? So what "church" is Paul talking about? The Roman Catholic Church or the church found in the new testament?

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Same thing.

Jesus only stated ONE Church.
The Church was led by the apostles who appointed successors.

St. Clement, the fourth pope, discusses it here in about 85 AD:

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the officeof the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

 

[rakovsky]

The Orthodox changed their position to suit their political goals.

Can you imagine an Orthodox Patriarch of today saying any of the following?

Please tell me if you can find a quote says that the pope cannot schismatic from the church or make any heresy so that he is infallible no matter what.

Quotes simply praising Rome before the schism don't count for that.

 

[Thursday]

Please tell me if you can find a quote says that the pope cannot schismatic from the church or make any heresy so that he is infallible no matter what.

Quotes simply praising Rome before the schism don't count for that.

They are not simply praising Rome, they are stating the Catholic position with regard to the pope, which makes sense because they were Catholic!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Same thing.

Jesus only stated ONE Church.
The Church was led by the apostles who appointed successors.

St. Clement, the fourth pope, discusses it here in about 85 AD:

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the officeof the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

The Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as found in the NT. Biblically speaking, the true “mother church” is the church that is described in the book of Acts and the New Testament epistles. In the biblical mother church, you will find no mention of priests, cardinals, or popes. Nowhere will you find Mary being adored or saints being venerated. In the biblical descriptions of the true mother church, there are no infants being baptized or elements of the Lord’s Supper being transformed into the body and blood of Jesus. So, very clearly no, the Catholic Church is not the mother church.

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[rakovsky]

Unity was attained under the pope, as Jesus intended.

That's weird. I thought unity was achieved under Jesus or under the church collectively, not an earthly leader.
After all, there were popes who got excommunicated and times between popes when there was no pope. Hence there was not unity then?

 

[Thursday]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as found in the NT.

Yes it is. Please explain when the New Testament Church lost apostolic succession and changed its teachings.

 

[rakovsky]

They are not simply praising Rome, they are stating the Catholic position with regard to the pope, which makes sense because they were Catholic!

Which quote states your claim that the pope cannot teach heresy or is infallible.
Jesus is Lord is the Catholic position too. Calling Jesus Lord does not mean the saints accepted all the popes teachings including heresies.

 

[Thursday]

That's weird. I thought unity was achieved under Jesus or under the church collectively, not an earthly leader.
After all, there were popes who got excommunicated and times between popes when there was no pope. Hence there was not unity then?

Jesus gave us earthly leaders and told us to follow them.

John reiterates here:

1 John 4:6

We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[rakovsky]

Yes it is. Please explain when the New Testament Church lost apostolic succession and changed its teachings.

Since the NT church didn't change its teachings, the innovative modern RCS are not the NT church by your count?

Papal infallibility was even opposed by a 19th c. Pope!