The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[Goatee]

Where shall I start?

lol.........A bit of humour people!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where shall I start?

Choose your poison. Of course you'll have to detail why they're heretical to Catholics. Being heresy only applies to the faith that you belong to. My faith might be heretical to you, but it's not to me. Get it? Proceed.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Really?

Answering a question with a question is rarely productive.

 

[Root of Jesse]

lol.........A bit of humour people!

Some words, though, such as "Hitler" don't deserve humor.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Choose your poison. Of course you'll have to detail why they're heretical to Catholics. Being heresy only applies to the faith that you belong to. My faith might be heretical to you, but it's not to me. Get it? Proceed.

You are correct, I will not waste my time on it. Remain in your heresy...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Answering a question with a question is rarely productive.

Nothing here is productive. You have chosen your path and so you remain in it...

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Some words, though, such as "Hitler" don't deserve humor.

"And now its springtime, for Hitler, and Germany..."

 

[Paul Yohannan]

You're free to believe as you wish, certainly, but I don't think you have much to stand on. I know lots of Orthodox who believe we should be reunited. A war of words with little to distinguish it.

Indeed, such as myself.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I believe it was St. Andrew, the first Apostle to be called by Yeshua that established it.

Unlikely. While St. Andrew did travel north, the idea that Constantinople is particularly his see is probably wishful thinking. This is in contrast to the very obvious Petrine association with Rome and Antioch, and the presence of St. Thomas in the East.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Unlikely. While St. Andrew did travel north, the idea that Constantinople is particularly his see is probably wishful thinking. This is in contrast to the very obvious Petrine association with Rome and Antioch, and the presence of St. Thomas in the East.

It is about Andrew being the elder brother - trying to top Peter. Scotland did something similar, choosing Andrew as a new patron saint when they were in conflict with the papacy.

 

[prodromos]

It is about Andrew being the elder brother - trying to top Peter. Scotland did something similar, choosing Andrew as a new patron saint when they were in conflict with the papacy.

Andrew is not the elder brother, Peter is.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Andrew is not the elder brother, Peter is.

Could you give me references why you say this? Andrew was definitely considered to be the elder brother in the West during the Middle Ages, but I am unaware of any early texts that specifically say who is older and who younger.

The tradition may have been suggested by the fact that the older brothers are frequently overlooked in the Bible, like Esau, Ishmael or the high priesthood passing to Ithamar's descendants.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Nothing here is productive. You have chosen your path and so you remain in it...

God has chosen my path and I remain in it.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

It is about Andrew being the elder brother - trying to top Peter. Scotland did something similar, choosing Andrew as a new patron saint when they were in conflict with the papacy.

There is no evidence of that.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

There is no evidence of that.

I was merely speculating based on similar events where Andrew came to be favoured as Patron in opposition to Petrine involvement.

Or do you mean that Andrew is the older brother? I am actually interested if there are any early texts that say otherwise.

 

[prodromos]

Could you give me references why you say this? Andrew was definitely considered to be the elder brother in the West during the Middle Ages, but I am unaware of any early texts that specifically say who is older and who younger.

The tradition may have been suggested by the fact that the older brothers are frequently overlooked in the Bible, like Esau, Ishmael or the high priesthood passing to Ithamar's descendants.

I've not had time to look, but I remember St John Chrysostom referring to Peter as the eldest of the Apostles. Andrew's distinction is that he is the "first called" of the Apostles, himself being a former disciple of St John the Forerunner.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I've not had time to look, but I remember St John Chrysostom referring to Peter as the eldest of the Apostles.

I did a quick search and found a lot of passages where Chrysostom refers to Peter as First of the Apostles, but not one saying he was the older son of Jonah vis-a-vis Andrew.

I did see that many popular Orthodox biographies call Peter the older brother, while others say Andrew is. The Catholic and Protestant biographies of Andrew seem to mostly say Andrew is the elder brother or not mention it at all.

To hazard a guess, I assume that someone decided that oft-quoted papacy-supporting statements like saying Peter was 'First' may be obfuscated by him being the oldest Apostle, so it may have spread in popular Orthodox use. Scholarly articles on Andrew does not seem to mention much on this question though. I had always just assumed it was accepted that Andrew was older as many tales of patron Saint one-upmanship derive from it. I'll have to look around if I can find a credible source, although I consider finding one unlikely.