The Early Church is the Catholic Church

Thursday

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.

These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

First up, this is taken from the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, written to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. I've highlighted some key quotes that demonstrate the authority of the Church and the pope.

First Epistle to the Church at Corinth,
by His Holiness Pope St. Clement I



Chapter 40

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in their proper order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings to be presented and service to be performed to Him, and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable to Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 43

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those ministers before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, "a faithful servant in all his house," noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them together, and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister to Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think you, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those presbyters already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

This and dozens of other early Church writings can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
 
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Thursday

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St. Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was a disciple of John who was fed to the lions in Rome for his Christian faithAD. He wrote several letters to various churches while being transported to Rome for his trial and execution. Some excerpts are below

Here he describes the Catholic Church and then describes the Eucharist.


See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8


Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6
 
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Thursday

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St. Justin Martyr writing the Emperor in about 150 AD. He is describing the Catholic mass as part of his effort to inform the throne about the Christian Church. His efforts failed and he was eventually killed for his faith.

To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and toLucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and theadopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacredSenate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of FlaviaNeapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustlyhated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them......

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία[the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believesthat the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For theapostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are calledGospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The problem is that the Catholic Church does not exist separately at this stage. The patriarchs of the eastern sees like Antioch and Alexandria were still in communion with Rome. The dogmas which later differentiated the Coptic from the Orthodox from the Catholic etc. were not yet in place. There was but one Catholic Church as the Apostle's creed says, which later became Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. These quotations can be used by Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches as much as by the Roman Catholic Church. It merely shows that there was a tradition of Apostolic Succession, nothing else.

Catholic only means Universal. Both the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants for that matter, claim to be both orthodox and catholic in the non-denominational senses of those words.
 
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Thursday

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The problem is that the Catholic Church does not exist separately at this stage. The patriarchs of the eastern sees like Antioch and Alexandria were still in communion with Rome. The dogmas which later differentiated the Coptic from the Orthodox from the Catholic etc. were not yet in place. There was but one Catholic Church as the Apostle's creed says, which later became Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. These quotations can be used by Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches as much as by the Roman Catholic Church. It merely shows that there was a tradition of Apostolic Succession, nothing else.

Catholic only means Universal. Both the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants for that matter, claim to be both orthodox and catholic in the non-denominational senses of those words.

In the beginning, there was just one Church. We can determine which Church it is today by following the successors of the apostles.

Do you think a Church without the successor of Peter could be the Church Jesus started?


Also, I don't think that the pope exercising his authority over other Churches, as Pope Clement did, can be used by any Church other than the Catholic Church as evidence of their status as the first Church.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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In the beginning, there was just one Church. We can determine which Church it is today by following the successors of the apostles.

Do you think a Church without the successor of Peter could be the Church Jesus started?


Also, I don't think that the pope exercising his authority over other Churches, as Pope Clement did, can be used by any Church other than the Catholic Church as evidence of their status as the first Church.
1 Clement was written because of a dispute amongst presbyters at Corinth. It does not show nor prove papal supremacy over any other bishop.

Whether a Church without Peter's one is legitimate is another question. It boils down to what is meant by the 'Rock' upon which Jesus builds his Church. The Orthodox see it as Primus inter pares, First amongst Equals, which is why one of those could fall in error, even if the one that has the most illustrious place.
Many Protestants deny that Apostolic Succession is even a thing and that that as well as the keys of heaven, were meant for Peter alone, not his successors.
If someone agrees with your argument, they would likely be a Roman Catholic already and you would be preaching to the converted.
 
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Thursday

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1 Clement was written because of a dispute amongst presbyters at Corinth. It does not show nor prove papal supremacy over any other bishop.

Actually, it does.

The Church at Corinth is not geographically close to Rome, yet they consulted the pope for an authoritative ruling on their internal disputes.

In addition, we have evidence from subsequent writings that they accepted his admonishments and ruling with gladness and in the coming decades frequently reread his letter in public.


Also, even if a group, like the Orthodox, has come to view the role of Peter's successors in a slightly different way, they still acknowledge this unique position. How can they claim to be the original Church when the successor of Peter isn't even in their Church?
 
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Radagast

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Actually, it does.

The Church at Corinth is not geographically close to Rome, yet they consulted the pope for an authoritative ruling on their internal disputes.

If you look at the canons of the council of Nicaea, the metropolitan bishops of Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch have equal status (above other bishops), with a special status for the bishop of Jerusalem. Nothing about popes there.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Actually, it does.

The Church at Corinth is not geographically close to Rome, yet they consulted the pope for an authoritative ruling on their internal disputes.

In addition, we have evidence from subsequent writings that they accepted his admonishments and ruling with gladness and in the coming decades frequently reread his letter in public.


Also, even if a group, like the Orthodox, has come to view the role of Peter's successors in a slightly different way, they still acknowledge this unique position. How can they claim to be the original Church when the successor of Peter isn't even in their Church?
They asked for an opinion. He gave one and they thanked him for it and implemented it. There is nothing proving Clement had a Right to intervene, nor that he was acknowledged above their own bishop.
 
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BryanMaloney

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Well, aren't you cute? That "Catholic" church cited above is the Orthodox Church, of course, not the errant schism that went its own way under Rome. Note that when ALL of the above were written, Rome was still in Communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. However, by the 11th century, Rome had begun to fall into pride and error. The Schism occurred, and Rome has been outside the actual Catholic church ever since, although She is welcome to return.
 
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Soyeong

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.

"Church" means "assembly" so the earliest Church would be Israel in the OT. It was prophesied that God would rebuild David's fallen tent (Amos 9:11), so Israel is the church that Christ said he would rebuild. For roughly 7-15 years between Christ's ascension and the inclusion of of Gentiles in Acts 10, Christianity was composed entirely of Torah-observant Jews, which again predates Catholicism.
 
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Thursday

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If you look at the canons of the council of Nicaea, the metropolitan bishops of Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch have equal status (above other bishops), with a special status for the bishop of Jerusalem. Nothing about popes there.


The role of the pope was already well established. It was only centuries later that some Eastern Christians(the Orthodox) began to see political advantage in reducing his primacy. You'll see that their earlier Patriarchs were strong Catholics who acknowledged the role of the pope.

St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434):
A disciple of St. John Chrysostom

Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing? (Proclus, Or. viii In Dom. Transfig. t. ix. Galland)

Here's strong evidence on that count in quotes from these various Eastern Patriarchs over the years:

Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516)

Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.' (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)

Emperor Justinian of Constantinople(520-533)

Writing to the Pope:
Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches. (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all. (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)

John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)

The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, Catech. xi. n. 3)

For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven. (Cyril, Catechetical Lectures A.D. 350).

Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly. (Cyril, Catech ii. n. 15)
 
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Thursday

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"Church" means "assembly" so the earliest Church would be Israel in the OT. It was prophesied that God would rebuild David's fallen tent (Amos 9:11), so Israel is the church that Christ said he would rebuild. For roughly 7-15 years between Christ's ascension and the inclusion of of Gentiles in Acts 10, Christianity was composed entirely of Torah-observant Jews, which again predates Catholicism.

The apostles were the leaders of the Catholic Church. You are trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist.
 
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Thursday

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Well, aren't you cute? That "Catholic" church cited above is the Orthodox Church, of course, not the errant schism that went its own way under Rome. Note that when ALL of the above were written, Rome was still in Communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. However, by the 11th century, Rome had begun to fall into pride and error. The Schism occurred, and Rome has been outside the actual Catholic church ever since, although She is welcome to return.


How can the Orthodox Church, which split from the Catholic Church, be the Church Christ founded when it doesn't even have as a member the successor of Peter?
 
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Thursday

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They asked for an opinion. He gave one and they thanked him for it and implemented it. There is nothing proving Clement had a Right to intervene, nor that he was acknowledged above their own bishop.

They asked for a judgment, and he told them that if they ignored his judgment they would be ignoring the instructions of God. They didn't find this offensive or strange, the rejoiced in the authoritative response.

Heavy stuff.
 
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prodromos

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.
Wrong from the outset :)
These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

First up, this is taken from the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, written to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. I've highlighted some key quotes that demonstrate the authority of the Church and the pope.

First Epistle to the Church at Corinth,
by His Holiness Pope St. Clement I



Chapter 40

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in their proper order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings to be presented and service to be performed to Him, and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable to Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 43

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those ministers before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, "a faithful servant in all his house," noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them together, and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister to Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think you, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those presbyters already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

This and dozens of other early Church writings can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
Nothing remotely supporting the papacy there.
 
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prodromos

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In the beginning, there was just one Church. We can determine which Church it is today by following the successors of the apostles.

Do you think a Church without the successor of Peter could be the Church Jesus started?
If you want to go down that path, our bishops are successors to all the Apostles including Peter.
Also, I don't think that the pope exercising his authority over other Churches, as Pope Clement did, can be used by any Church other than the Catholic Church as evidence of their status as the first Church.
Clement wrote the letter on behalf of the leadership at Rome. All the evidence suggests the Church in Rome was initially led by a group of elders in the first century and not by individual bishops.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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They asked for a judgment, and he told them that if they ignored his judgment they would be ignoring the instructions of God. They didn't find this offensive or strange, the rejoiced in the authoritative response.

Heavy stuff.
Yes, they asked for a judgement on their dispute from a respected authority of the Church. This does not mean they were akin to supplicants approaching their king. Clement was merely informing as to Church teaching, not declaring by fiat what that is. Neither history nor 1 Clement unambigiously supports your claims.
 
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prodromos

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Actually, it does.
Actually, it doesn't.
The Church at Corinth is not geographically close to Rome, yet they consulted the pope for an authoritative ruling on their internal disputes.
Logistically, however, Rome was highly accessible from Corinth. All the major trade to the East from Rome passed through Corinth which meant reliable communication between Rome and Corinth. Corinth itself was a Roman colony established after the original Greek inhabitants were slaughtered or sold into slavery after a failed uprising. Paul had established the Church in Corinth and ended his days building up the Church in Rome, Clement being one of his close companions. There were very strong ties between Corinth and Rome.
In addition, we have evidence from subsequent writings that they accepted his admonishments and ruling with gladness and in the coming decades frequently reread his letter in public.
Why wouldn't they have accepted what they had specifically asked for?
Also, even if a group, like the Orthodox, has come to view the role of Peter's successors in a slightly different way, they still acknowledge this unique position. How can they claim to be the original Church when the successor of Peter isn't even in their Church?
You keep making this claim. Who do you think the Bishop of Antioch traces his apostolic lineage back to?
 
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Soyeong

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The apostles were the leaders of the Catholic Church. You are trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist.

The Catholic Church does not teach Torah observance, so that is a significant distinction from how Christianity was first practiced.
 
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