The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[ToBeLoved]

I think you are mistaken:

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

This is angels, not dead people.

 

[tickingclocker]

First of all, they are not dead.

Second of all, you are mistaken:

Rev. 5:8
. 8When He had taken the scroll, thefour living creatures and the twenty-fourelders fell down before the Lamb. Each onehad a harp, and they held the golden bowlsfull of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

You have a point. Those who are in Christ who have passed from earthly life to heavenly life, are indeed alive with Him!
Semantics. Some are concerned about them, others not so much.

Those prayers of the saints were offered by believers while they were on earth, stored for this day of reckoning. Not the prayers of those in heaven. Look at the verse in the context of a word picture. Incense is burned and, like prayer, goes up to God, not down. (The Catholic church burns incense to "please God in heaven", yes?) The sacrifices of martyred saints is like incense to God.

Let my prayer be set forth before You as incense..... (Ps 141:2a)
And all the multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. (Luke 1:10)
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. And much incense was given to him, so that he could offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which is before the throne. (Rev 8:3)

 

[Thursday]

This is angels, not dead people.

It doesn't say that.

There is another passage that mentions angels but not this one.

It is consistent with the passage in Revelation where the souls of the martyrs cry out for justice.

 

[Thursday]

You have a point. Those who are in Christ who have passed from earthly life to heavenly life, are indeed alive with Him!
Semantics. Some are concerned about them, others not so much.

Those prayers of the saints were offered by believers while they were on earth, stored for this day of reckoning. Not the prayers of those in heaven. Look at the verse in the context of a word picture. Incense is burned and, like prayer, goes up to God, not down. (The Catholic church burns incense to "please God in heaven", yes?) The sacrifices of martyred saints is like incense to God.

Let my prayer be set forth before You as incense..... (Ps 141:2a)
And all the multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. (Luke 1:10)
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. And much incense was given to him, so that he could offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which is before the throne. (Rev 8:3)

The point is that those in heaven are carrying our prayers to God.

This is just as we help carry each others burdens by praying for each other.

Do you think you will stop praying for the people you love when you get to heaven?

 

[tickingclocker]

"Thursday, post: 69641801, member: 383862"]I think you are mistaken:

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
---Of course they will rejoice! Is there any sorrow or pain in rejoicing over a sinner now saved? How did they find out this sinner was saved? IDK. But neither do you. God never says how they can know this. Yet it is a message of joy. Not of sorrow or pain.

Heb 11,12
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.
---I don't get what you are trying to convey here. Witnesses does not convey any emotion, they testify of their faith. This verse reiterates what Rev. 5:8 and 6:9, 10 shows, that at the appointed time, God will move to bring justice to those who died for their faith.

Rev 6:10
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord,holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth” and avenge our blood.
---They are asking God a question from righteousness. They are not praying. (It also shows that even when in heaven we will not fully know God's mind. If we were somehow made divine before or even after death, we would.) The verses below flesh this future scene out:

Rejoice, you heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him; rejoice you Gentiles, with His people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in Him; for He shall avenge the blood of His sons, and He shall render vengeance, and recompense justice to His enemies, and will reward them that hate Him; and the Lord shall purge the land of His people. (Deut 32:43)

And God, shall He not execute justice for His own elect, who cry out day and night to Him, and yet He is patient with them? (Luke 18:7)

 

[Thursday]

"Thursday, post: 69641801, member: 383862"]I think you are mistaken:

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
---Of course they will rejoice! Is there any sorrow or pain in rejoicing over a sinner now saved? How did they find out this sinner was saved? IDK. But neither do you. God never says how they can know this. Yet it is a message of joy. Not of sorrow or pain.

Heb 11,12
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.
---I don't get what you are trying to convey here. Witnesses does not convey any emotion, they testify of their faith. This verse reiterates what Rev. 5:8 and 6:9, 10 shows, that at the appointed time, God will move to bring justice to those who died for their faith.

Rev 6:10
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord,holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth” and avenge our blood.
---They are asking God a question from righteousness. They are not praying. (It also shows that even when in heaven we will not fully know God's mind. If we were somehow made divine before or even after death, we would.) The verses below flesh this future scene out:

Rejoice, you heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him; rejoice you Gentiles, with His people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in Him; for He shall avenge the blood of His sons, and He shall render vengeance, and recompense justice to His enemies, and will reward them that hate Him; and the Lord shall purge the land of His people. (Deut 32:43)

And God, shall He not execute justice for His own elect, who cry out day and night to Him, and yet He is patient with them? (Luke 18:7)

Not following your point.

It seems you agree that those in heaven are aware of events on earth.

Do you believe you will stop praying for those you love when you get to heaven?

 

[tickingclocker]

It doesn't say that.

There is another passage that mentions angels but not this one.

It is consistent with the passage in Revelation where the souls of the martyrs cry out for justice.

I'm inclined to agree. It doesn't say angels. Although, angels are messengers. They would be able to inform the saints in heaven that another sinner had been saved, causing joy. Not sorrow or pain.

 

[tickingclocker]

Not following your point.

It seems you agree that those in heaven are aware of events on earth.

Do you believe you will stop praying for those you love when you get to heaven?

The relationship between those on earth, the living and those in heaven cannot be bridged. I know I can stop praying for my loved ones. They are in HEAVEN! They have their reward. Why should I pray for something that has been actualized? That relationship ends its earthly use once they die. Do my loved ones in heaven pray for me? No. They don't. They are not aware of my pain any longer, because they no longer have any. Prayer is for pain and sorrow, something they are no longer aware of. Rejoicing is prayer actualized, expressed by glorifying God. No one rejoices over pain and sorrow. No one prays while rejoicing over answered--prayer. Prayer is hope. Not hope actualized, which is joy. See 1 Corinthians 13 for that.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I'm secretly an albino monk that works for the Vatican, I'm actually the guy who runs the Vatican super computer with a database of all the names of Protestants all over the world. Also, we're currently in league with the lizard men and the five Jewish bankers. Nanu nanu.

-CryptoLutheran

Sarcasm is not a godly trait. Nice gas-lighting though.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

First of all, they are not dead.

Second of all, you are mistaken:

Rev. 5:8
. 8When He had taken the scroll, thefour living creatures and the twenty-fourelders fell down before the Lamb. Each onehad a harp, and they held the golden bowlsfull of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Physically she and they are dead. You seriously would like to debate physical death?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sarcasm is not a godly trait. Nice gas-lighting though.

It made me smile.

Maybe it wasn't sarcasm?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sarcasm is not a godly trait. Nice gas-lighting though.

I don't know whether sarcasm is godly or not, but making false accusations certain isn't godly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I don't know whether sarcasm is godly or not, but making false accusations certain isn't godly.

-CryptoLutheran

So putting a table of events with time lines is false accusations?

 

[2Timothy2:15]

It made me smile.

Maybe it wasn't sarcasm?

Matthew 5:37King James Version (KJV)
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Ephesians 5:4King James Version (KJV)
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So putting a table of events with time lines is false accusations?

Insinuating that I'm secretly a Roman Catholic is a false accusation.

What seems obvious to me is that you have relatively very little exposure to Christianity outside of your bubble.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BryanMaloney]

And yet, when tasked with appointing a successor to Judas, they prayed to the Holy Spirit, and appointed a successor. Also, Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. And as John 6 points out, it's the ones who fell away that were schismatic, not those who stayed with Jesus...

And Rome fell away while Orthodoxy stayed with Jesus.

 

[BryanMaloney]

So you are right and all the Eastern Patriarchs and Biships I quoted are wrong. I see.

The Orthodox Patriarchs do not see Rome as their ruler and do not consider Rome to be the fount of the Church. Thus, the TRUE Eastern Bishops, the ORTHODOX Bishops, agree with me. The lapdogs of Rome can say what they want, but that does not make it true. The Church established by Christ is the Orthodox Church. Rome is in schism.

 

[BryanMaloney]

In your (minority) opinion. I have lots of Orthodox friends who wish to be in full communion with the Catholic Church, and there are no obstacles, to them.

No obstacles? If they are TRULY "no obstacles", then COMMUNION ALREADY EXISTS. Communion does not exist. Thus, Rome is still in schism. If Rome is still in schism, there are still obstacles. I am not a minority, unless you consider the Orthodox Patriarchs, Archbishops, etc. to be the same "minority".

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matthew 5:37King James Version (KJV)
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Ephesians 5:4King James Version (KJV)
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Rufflies

 

[rakovsky]

In your (minority) opinion. I have lots of Orthodox friends who wish to be in full communion with the Catholic Church, and there are no obstacles, to them.

I don't know what this supposed no obstacles thing is about.
While we may be closer to RCS than, say, to most Protestants, there is a huge practical obstacle, the RC version of papal supremacy whereby the pope becomes the de facto emperor of every patriarch so that Orthodox lose the right to disagree with the pope on anything.
Just like a bishop can tell a priest what theology not to teach or how to serve a mass, the RC pope claims power to dictate the same things to any EO if they reunite under papal supremacy. THAT IS A HUGE OBSTACLE because it De facto means giving up any final right to assert orthodoxy against the pope if the pope and the EOs disagree on anything in the future.