Can you be good without God?

[Landon Caeli]

Then do you care to address the point?

Maybe later.

 

[Locutus]

I dont care. It's ignorant to say that any kind of pain or trauma is immoral, when we have to go through birth and death... Yet, we criticise God for allowing rape to occur? How selective... It's avoiding the details again and ignoring things, which make this conversation illogical.

It IS immoral if a person or entity who CAN stop a child being raped, doesn't. Anything less than a firm an immediate position on this would leave the world in utter chaos. We cannot allow for (occasional) justification without losing all law and order as we know it.

Besides, it's just plain disingenuous to pretend any of us don't judge. Saying it of another is odd, saying it about ourselves is flat out preposterous. I've never yet met a human being who doesn't judge. And in fact the most prolific 'judgers' I've known have been theists. SWJ ideologues come a close runner up though, so there is evidently nothing particular to religion in this.

 

[Davian]

You use a *hypothetical* example, and then rule out any possible detail?

Where did I do that?

Such as perhaps *hypothetically* a greater danger could occur by attempting to stop the rape of a child. Say the man has a gun, or say he is a well known gangster known for having entire families assasinated...

...You tell me what the greater good is then; if you had to choose between: saving a child from physical and emotional abuse - or protecting yourself or your entire family from death...

Therefore, it is *possible* that doing nothing while a child is being raped, is neither good or evil.

Just like a landowner who's tree falls and crushes a person. There is neither "good" or "evil" in the situation.

...Not every action we make either, is good or evil. Intentions mean everything and our culpability depends on what we do compared to what we know.

Sure, but this is called situational ethics; the OP says "...everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition". These two positions are incompatible.

Now, you may try to butter both sides of your bread, but it will make a mess. It may be that Achilles has dropped out of the thread to try to clean up.

I don't have a problem with situational ethics; And if you want to apply them to your [hypothetical] god, that works for me, but the questions still stands: Is it "...everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition" or do we apply our "man-made" morals to your god?

 

[Davian]

You insulting my God

I left it wide open for you to suggest why an allegedly all-powerful-all-knowing "something" might not interfere with the rape of a child, or to concur with the OP. That is all I saw you offer.

is like me insulting your mother.

Different, in that I can produce the victim on my side.

In either case, we should have enough respect to avoid these types of exchanges.

I don't respect hypocrisy.

 

[Davian]

"Invincible ignorance" is a term we teach in Catholicism.

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I can hazard a guess.

It is to imply that the ineffectiveness of your arguments is somehow the fault of those that disagree with you?

 

[The Cadet]

...In the middle of a desert, and the rapist has a gun, you would take a bullet and call that the greater good?

Good news! God doesn't have to take the bullet, because he can make the gun disappear. In fact, he can make it so the rapist never met his victim, and instead ended up becoming a Buddhist Monk or something like that. In fact, he could have created a world without rape! But he didn't. Why?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Good news! God doesn't have to take the bullet, because he can make the gun disappear. In fact, he can make it so the rapist never met his victim, and instead ended up becoming a Buddhist Monk or something like that. In fact, he could have created a world without rape! But he didn't. Why?

The only coherent answer for an omnipotent god would be a desire to have things the way they are. Theists are so incredibly better served with saying that their god doesn't have the power to end suffering, rather than sticking with an apathetic or malevolent diety. I think it pains them to imagine their god as anything less than all powerful, even with the implications that brings.

 

[The Cadet]

The only coherent answer for an omnipotent god would be a desire to have things the way they are. Theists are so incredibly better served with saying that their god doesn't have the power to end suffering, rather than sticking with an apathetic or malevolent diety. I think it pains them to imagine their god as anything less than all powerful, even with the implications that brings.

Or, alternatively, go the Greek route, and recognize that the gods, while powerful, are also huge jerks.

 

[Locutus]

The only coherent answer for an omnipotent god would be a desire to have things the way they are. .

Absolutely. The Omni-everything factor is fatal to the theology.

Therefore all that can be said (in defence of the failure to employ unlimited power) is that there must be 'reasons'. A defence never allowed for women having abortions, or gay people marrying.

 

[MennoSota]

It IS immoral if a person or entity who CAN stop a child being raped, doesn't. Anything less than a firm an immediate position on this would leave the world in utter chaos. We cannot allow for (occasional) justification without losing all law and order as we know it.

Besides, it's just plain disingenuous to pretend any of us don't judge. Saying it of another is odd, saying it about ourselves is flat out preposterous. I've never yet met a human being who doesn't judge. And in fact the most prolific 'judgers' I've known have been theists. SWJ ideologues come a close runner up though, so there is evidently nothing particular to religion in this.

Is God immoral by showing mercy toward law breaking humanity?

By your comments you condemn yourself to God's judgment upon your own wickedness.

Do you desire that God act immediately in His judgment upon you or would you ask that He wait for a bit?

 

[Locutus]

Is God immoral by showing mercy toward law breaking humanity?

By your comments you condemn yourself to God's judgment upon your own wickedness.

Do you desire that God act immediately in His judgment upon you or would you ask that He wait for a bit?

If I was a child being raped, I would hope the god acted immediately.

With respect, if you're going to equate a delayed rap on the knuckles for telling a white lie with a delayed response to a child being raped, I don't think we're working from the same universe, much less the same song book.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Is God immoral by showing mercy toward law breaking humanity?

Yes. If he allows suffering when he could easily stop it, he is plainly immoral. If he exists immoral acts, just because he can, he is paint immoral. There's no way around that one from my point of view.

We'd never let a human judge behave in such a way. Why excuse the Cosmic Judge?

By your comments you condemn yourself to God's judgment upon your own wickedness.

Yes. If what you say is true, that I am worthy of condemnation to hell for my wickedness, then I don't see any other option. We don't let murderers go without punishment because we feel bad. If they did something that deserves punishment, the only right and just thing to do is to condemn and punish.

Why would God excuse our transgressions? Do we not deserve eternal punishment?

Do you desire that God act immediately in His judgment upon you or would you ask that He wait for a bit?

Well that would certainly go a long way on proving that any God even exists, and further still has demands that must be met.

If my only punishment comes only after I'm dead, well I'm sorry if I don't take that that very seriously.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Is God immoral by showing mercy toward law breaking humanity?

Depends on the person and the crime. Some wrongdoers are worthy of mercy, others are not.

By your comments you condemn yourself to God's judgment upon your own wickedness.

So, god is willing to give mercy to rapists, however by speaking a couple critical words, Locutus has condemned himself to god's judgment upon his own wickedness.

One of these things is not like the other.... one would assume god would have the emotional maturity to brush off some critical language....

Do you desire that God act immediately in His judgment upon you or would you ask that He wait for a bit?

What would it matter?

 

[MennoSota]

If I was a child being raped, I would hope the god acted immediately.

With respect, if you're going to equate a delayed rap on the knuckles for telling a white lie with a delayed response to a child being raped, I don't think we're working from the same universe, much less the same song book.

Your judgment of your own sin is pretty lenient. Do you think God hasn't seen the thoughts you have and the hatred you harbor?
White lies are a figment of your imagined goodness.

I too wish that God would act to stop rapists, but He let's humankind act upon their evil actions. If he stops one sin, should he not stop all sin and thus stop displaying mercy and grace to any of us?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes. If he allows suffering when he could easily stop it, he is plainly immoral. If he exists immoral acts, just because he can, he is paint immoral. There's no way around that one from my point of view.

We'd never let a human judge behave in such a way. Why excuse the Cosmic Judge?

Yes. If what you say is true, that I am worthy of condemnation to hell for my wickedness, then I don't see any other option. We don't let murderers go without punishment because we feel bad. If they did something that deserves punishment, the only right and just thing to do is to condemn and punish.

Why would God excuse our transgressions? Do we not deserve eternal punishment?

Well that would certainly go a long way on proving that any God even exists, and further still has demands that must be met.

If my only punishment comes only after I'm dead, well I'm sorry if I don't take that that very seriously.

Indeed, God has declared that judgment is coming. Everyone dies and everyone stands before God's judgment. Condemnation is as sure as the earth rotating on its access.

If God justly acted on our first sin, no human would live to their first birthday.

We see God act in stopping wickedness all the time. The problem is that you tend not to acknowledge that God is acting to bring judgment via human law.

 

[Locutus]

Your judgment of your own sin is pretty lenient. Do you think God hasn't seen the thoughts you have and the hatred you harbor?
White lies are a figment of your imagined goodness.

I too wish that God would act to stop rapists, but He let's humankind act upon their evil actions. If he stops one sin, should he not stop all sin and thus stop displaying mercy and grace to any of us?

My judgement of my own sin? What on earth does that mean, and what does it have to do with a god who watches children being raped and does nothing? Meantime, does the failure of non-believers to be terrible, rattle cages so much that hatred is pretended?

Any issues you have (my bolding) with the god might best be taken up with him directly.

 

[Locutus]

Indeed, God has declared that judgment is coming. Everyone dies and everyone stands before God's judgment. Condemnation is as sure as the earth rotating on its access.

If God justly acted on our first sin, no human would live to their first birthday.

We see God act in stopping wickedness all the time. The problem is that you tend not to acknowledge that God is acting to bring judgment via human law.

ahh ... so the god just does the same thing humans do (human law)?

 

[MennoSota]

My judgement of my own sin? What on earth does that mean, and what does it have to do with a god who watches children being raped and does nothing? Meantime, does the failure of non-believers to be terrible, rattle cages so much that hatred is pretended?

Any issues you have (my italics) with the god might best be taken up with him directly.

It means that you imagine yourself to be good because you compare yourself to a child molester rather than comparing yourself to the law and how you break the law on a daily basis.
You then judge God because he doesn't act according to your demands.
Do you recognize your hypocrisy or is it still eluding you?

 

[MennoSota]

ahh ... so the god just does the same thing humans do (human law)?

No, God's laws are the basis for human law. Without God's direction, humans would, by nature, be lawless and do whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

 

[Locutus]

It means that you imagine yourself to be good because you compare yourself to a child molester rather than comparing yourself to the law and how you break the law on a daily basis.
You then judge God because he doesn't act according to your demands.
Do you recognize your hypocrisy or is it still eluding you?

1) I have nowhere here, or anywhere, claimed to be good. I'm entirely fallible, and reasonably crapulent.

2) I can and do compare myself to a child molester, because I'm not one.

3) I break no laws that I'm aware of. Okay, maybe I creep over the speed limit by a km or two sometimes.

4) I don't judge gods, I judge the human interface - because it's all we have. if and when the gods show up for dinner, then I'll judge them. in exactly the same way that you judge your god, constantly. except that I'll do it on merit, not by authority. I have no 'demands' of characters in books. I ask believers to ask themselves why their god finds car keys for rich Americans but lets African kids starve.

5) Show me hypocrisy. If it's there, I'm happy to own it.