Can you be good without God?

[Landon Caeli]

I'm sure if his mother stood by and let a child rape happen that she could have prevented, he'd want to know what the hell was wrong with her as well....

Same goes for my mother, and hopefully yours as well.

So you would choose to die and save a rape victim as opposed to not taking action and living, in such a situation?

...In the middle of a desert, and the rapist has a gun, you would take a bullet and call that the greater good?

 

[Dave Ellis]

So you think we can determine the eternal Laws of the next life? How do we determine which repercussions will or will not result from God removing our free will or intervening? Who do we suppose he lets in heaven, those who have never had the chance to choose?

I don't know if there is any such thing as a next life, or how we could impact it if it does indeed exist.

However, it's certainly possible to intervene and not remove free will.

That being said, if you actually read the bible, it's full of examples of god violating free will all over the place, so I'm not really sure why that matters to the argument.

 

[Locutus]

So you would choose to die and save a rape victim as opposed to not taking action and living, in such a situation?

...In the middle of a desert, and the rapist has a gun, you would take a bullet and call that the greater good?

I actually feel bad that you have to go to these lengths.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So you would choose to die and save a rape victim as opposed to not taking action and living, in such a situation?

...In the middle of a desert, and the rapist has a gun, you would take a bullet and call that the greater good?

I'd do what I could to prevent the rape. I would assume that would come with some physical risk to myself. I would do that because I'm a moral being.

As for your god, he'd be immune to that risk, yet he is completely fine with hanging back and watching it happen. That's not possible for any moral being.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I actually feel bad that you have to go to these lengths.

Invincible ignorance is a blessing. Enjoy it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

However, it's certainly possible to intervene and not remove free will.

No it's not. If everytime I tried to do something bad, it just 'couldn't' happen, that would make my conscience disfunctional. I would have never witnessed evil, or have made a real choice in my life. I would not ever be ready to live in Gods presence.

 

[Locutus]

I disagree, although it appears that this will remain at an impasse. Supernatural matters are not totally unknowable or unknown and, meanwhile, the natural world is far from being entirely known by Man. It's a great exaggeration to hold that nothing supernatural can even be contemplated, however tentatively, but that everything that can be known of the physical world has been discovered already.

I said nothing at all like or about 'knowing everything there is to know'. That wasn't under discussion. I commented on the testability and demonstrability of elements of the natural world.

In the meantime, if you're claiming that 'supernatural matters' are knowable, you must know how they're knowable. If you don't, then you can't rightly make that claim. All you can say with any authority is that some people feel as though there is a supernatural realm.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No it's not. If everytime I tried to do something bad, it just 'couldn't' happen, that would make my conscience disfunctional. I would have never witnessed evil, or have made a real choice in my life. I would not ever be ready to live in Gods presence.

Nonsense, god could have created something that would have prevented the rapist and the child from being in the same spot at the same time.

Could be something like the rapist got a flat tire that afternoon for example. There's no violation of free will whatsoever, and the situation is entirely avoided.

But again, violating free will is not a problem for god, if you believe in the god of the bible.

Another issue you aren't addressing, is what about the free will of the child? I'm sure the child does not want to be raped, yet god is perfectly ok with allowing the child's free will to be violated.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'd do what I could to prevent the rape. I would assume that would come with some physical risk to myself. I would do that because I'm a moral being.

You say this here, but with a gun pointed at you, in the middle of the desert, what could you do?

Oh wait! I forgot, the desert doesn't exist, and even if it did, it would be physically impossible for a rape to occur there. Therefore, all rapes across all of time have occured where help is available, so every witness to any rape ever is guilty of sin. Even slaves.

 

[Locutus]

No it's not. If everytime I tried to do something bad, it just 'couldn't' happen, that would make my conscience disfunctional. I would have never witnessed evil, or have made a real choice in my life. I would not ever be ready to live in Gods presence.

You're aware that many believers assert that the god intervened in the outcomes of football games, finding car keys, and securing job promotions? That is entirely 'messing with free will', and on a large scale. What about the free will of the losing football team? Or the learning of the individual (not to misplace car keys), or the person/s who missed the promotion?

 

[Locutus]

Invincible ignorance is a blessing. Enjoy it.

What am I ignorant of, specifically?

Everything and nothing? The supernatural realm? The various gods and prophets?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Nonsense, god could have created something that would have prevented the rapist and the child from being in the same spot at the same time.

Could be something like the rapist got a flat tire that afternoon for example. There's no violation of free will whatsoever, and the situation is entirely avoided.

But again, violating free will is not a problem for god, if you believe in the god of the bible.

Another issue you aren't addressing, is what about the free will of the child? I'm sure the child does not want to be raped, yet god is perfectly ok with allowing the child's free will to be violated.

Good idea. Make the world a perfect place just like heaven. We all know for a fact God can do that because we understand the entirety of his Eternal Law. We know exactly how it all works.

 

[Locutus]

You say this here, but with a gun pointed at you, in the middle of the desert, what could you do?

Oh wait! I forgot, the desert doesn't exist, and even if it did, it would be physically impossible for a rape to occur there. Therefore, all rapes across all of time have occured where help is available, so every witness to any rape ever is guilty of sin. Even slaves.

this is getting a little shrill and desperate.

you don't need to do this. you can just call it evil. employ the moral compass (judgement) you claim you never use but keep using to judge your god 'good', and acknowledge that some $#I! is just bad.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You say this here, but with a gun pointed at you, in the middle of the desert, what could you do?

Oh wait! I forgot, the desert doesn't exist, and even if it did, it would be physically impossible for a rape to occur there. Therefore, all rapes across all of time have occured where help is available, so every witness to any rape ever is guilty of sin. Even slaves.

If the rapist was busy pointing a gun at me, he would be a little bit too occupied to be raping someone.

As for your second point however, I do agree that everyone who had the ability to prevent a rape and failed to do so is guilty of a major moral failing. That goes for all humans, and if he exists, your god as well.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What am I ignorant of, specifically?

Everything and nothing? The supernatural realm? The various gods and prophets?

Specifically..? That would be when you dismissed the hypothetical desert scenario I presented... As if it's physically impossible... But even then, you would call a witness evil, wouldn't you?

 

[Locutus]

That being said, if you actually read the bible, it's full of examples of god violating free will all over the place, so I'm not really sure why that matters to the argument.

because it's all there is in the armoury.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Good idea. Make the world a perfect place just like heaven. We all know for a fact God can do that because we understand the entirety of his Eternal Law. We know exactly how it all works.

Well, why not?

Does free will exist in heaven? Any Christian I know would say yes. Is there violence and sin in heaven? Any Christian I know would say no.

If so, then it's clearly possible to construct a place where free will exists, and sin is not possible. Why wouldn't god just do that here?

 

[Landon Caeli]

this is getting a little shrill and desperate.

you don't need to do this. you can just call it evil. employ the moral compass (judgement) you claim you never use but keep using to judge your god 'good', and acknowledge that some $#I! is just bad.

No, you want to create your own specialized scenarios and then use. Giant brush to paint your dogma -where all witnesses to rape, who do nothing, are guilty of sin... No matter what.

How naive.

 

[Dave Ellis]

.

 

[Locutus]

Specifically..? That would be when you dismissed the hypothetical desert scenario I presented... As if it's physically impossible... But even then, you would call a witness evil, wouldn't you?

desert scenario? I made no observations on the specifics of it at all.

I don't 'dismiss' any of your scenarios. I noted that they read like the following:

Killing someone isn't bad if you do it while standing on your head, in a purple corridor, on a Thursday afternoon between 3 and 4pm, while wearing a black onesie, and singing Wrecking Ball.