Can you be good without God?

[Dave Ellis]

desert scenario? I made no observations on the specifics of it at all.

I don't 'dismiss' any of your scenarios. I noted that they read like the following:

Killing someone isn't bad if you do it while standing on your head, in a purple corridor, on a Thursday afternoon between 3 and 4pm, while wearing a black onesie, and singing Wrecking Ball.

If you sing wrecking ball, you are guilty of sin. That I think we can all agree upon.

 

[Locutus]

No, you want to create your own specialized scenarios and then use. Giant brush to paint your dogma -where all witnesses to rape, who do nothing, are guilty of sin... No matter what.

How naive.

MY specialised scenarios?

With respect, are you okay?

 

[Locutus]

If you sing wrecking ball, you are guilty of sin. That I think we can all agree upon.

well yeah. that would be the actual sin.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, you want to create your own specialized scenarios and then use. Giant brush to paint your dogma -where all witnesses to rape, who do nothing, are guilty of sin... No matter what.

How naive.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why secular morality trumps religious morality.

Look at yourself, you're actually trying to argue that there's nothing wrong with not trying to stop a child rape. No surprise you label yourself as a member of the Catholic Church.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Well, why not?

Does free will exist in heaven? Any Christian I know would say yes. Is there violence and sin in heaven? Any Christian I know would say no.

If so, then it's clearly possible to construct a place where free will exists, and sin is not possible. Why wouldn't god just do that here?

Mentally, I think posters here have problems with staying within the boundaries of logic. Using hypothetical scenarios, while rejecting possible details, cannot prove a point and has no basis in any kind of logic.

Then to suggest that God should have done this or that, as if we are more knowledgeable of the supernatural than a god we dont even believe in, in the first place, is pure insanity.

 

[Landon Caeli]

desert scenario? I made no observations on the specifics of it at all.

I don't 'dismiss' any of your scenarios. I noted that they read like the following:

Killing someone isn't bad if you do it while standing on your head, in a purple corridor, on a Thursday afternoon between 3 and 4pm, while wearing a black onesie, and singing Wrecking Ball.

I understand they read that way, but it doesn't matter much when the main topic is of remaining idle while a child rape occurs. How bazaar of a conversation it is to begin with, right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Mentally, I think posters here have problems with staying within the boundaries of logic. Using hypothetical scenarios, while rejecting possible details, cannoy prove a point and has no basis in any kind of logic.

Then to suggest that God should have done this or that, as if we are more knowledgeable of the supernatural than a god we dont even believe in, in the first place, is pure insanity.

Ignoring the basic laws of logic and the fundamental principles of morality to make excuses for your god is the real problem here.

If your god is perfectly moral, then he should act perfectly moral. The laws of morality, are the laws of morality. They are not different for gods and humans.

Likewise, your argument is dependent on god being completely powerless to prevent issues in a universe that he apparently has supreme power in. He had every opportunity to create a sin free universe, yet he created one that he must have known would fall into sin, based upon your mythology.

If you have the ability to create a world where nobody gets raped, and you instead decide to create one where people would be raped, you are immoral. Period.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Look at yourself, you're actually trying to argue that there's nothing wrong with not trying to stop a child rape. No surprise you label yourself as a member of the Catholic Church.

Reported.

 

[Locutus]

as if we are more knowledgeable of the supernatural than a god we dont even believe in, in the first place, is pure insanity.

please consider: if you have little knowledge of the supernatural (because to claim you have lots would be insanity), you are not in a position to even make the statement above. you're not in a position to say anything at all about it, other than make the observation - again - that some people feel it's real.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Ignoring the basic laws of logic and the fundamental principles of morality to make excuses for your god is the real problem here.

If your god is perfectly moral, then he should act perfectly moral. The laws of morality, are the laws of morality. They are not different for gods and humans.

Likewise, your argument is dependent on god being completely powerless to prevent issues in a universe that he apparently has supreme power in. He had every opportunity to create a sin free universe, yet he created one that he must have known would fall into sin, based upon your mythology.

If you have the ability to create a world where nobody gets raped, and you instead decide to create one where people would be raped, you are immoral. Period.

Is it immoral that we all die too? How about being born? Just imagine having your head squeezed by about 50 lbs of pressure, and then feeling the cold air for the first time... All immoral in your opinion?

 

[Locutus]

The laws of morality, are the laws of morality. They are not different for gods and humans.
.

I don't know about 'laws of morality', but there's a huge problem when we start personally granting morality exemptions based purely on an 'authority scale'. This is the very food and fuel of despotism, and underpins many barbaric acts within a family, a community, or a nation.

It's repulsive, regressive, and extremely dangerous.

 

[Locutus]

Is it immoral that we all die too? How about being born? Just imagine having your head squeezed by about 50 lbs of pressure, and then feeling the cold air for the first time... All immoral in your opinion?

You're reaching again. He didn't say anything like that.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You're reaching again. He didn't say anything like that.

I dont care. It's ignorant to say that any kind of pain or trauma is immoral, when we have to go through birth and death... Yet, we criticise God for allowing rape to occur? How selective... It's avoiding the details again and ignoring things, which make this conversation illogical.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Reported.

So rather than addressing my very accurate criticism, you're running to the mods to silence the argument.

I should point out, there was no personal attack in that post.

I pointed out accurately that you are arguing that there is a justifiable reason to not try to prevent child rape whenever possible. That is not a personal attack, that is exactly what you are arguing.

I then pointed out that you are a member of a church which has a long history of child rape problems. That is also accurate, and not a personal attack.

I never claimed you are a child rapist, or anything of the sort. That would have been a personal attack. I was insinuating the fact you belong to that church might be influencing your argument however. You are arguing morality from a Catholic standpoint, are you not?

It may have been worded strongly, however frankly I think the argument you are presenting is morally repugnant (note: I said your argument is morally repugnant, not you as a person, therefore also not a personal attack).

Child rape should always be prevented by whoever and whatever means possible, at any time.

To dispute that simple, basic fact about morality is simply inconceivable unless you have some other motivation, like trying to defend a church, or your god. That is why religious morality fails.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Is it immoral that we all die too? How about being born? Just imagine having your head squeezed by about 50 lbs of pressure, and then feeling the cold air for the first time... All immoral in your opinion?

I think those things are amoral. Naturally occurring things like those have no inherent moral standing. That being said, I'm coming from a position that birth and death came about naturally, and not by purposeful design.

If birth was designed that way purposefully, I would say at best that god is a poor engineer. Likewise, if aging and death is purposeful, I would call that immoral as well.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I dont care. It's ignorant to say that any kind of pain or trauma is immoral, when we have to go through birth and death... Yet, we criticise God for allowing rape to occur? How selective... It's avoiding the details again and ignoring things, which make this conversation illogical.

I never argued any kind of pain or trauma is immoral.

I said failing to prevent a child rape when it was within your power to do so is immoral.

You're creating a strawman.

 

[Landon Caeli]

So rather than addressing my very accurate criticism, you're running to the mods to silence the argument.

I should point out, there was no personal attack in that post.

I pointed out accurately that you are arguing that there is a justifiable reason to not try to prevent child rape whenever possible. That is not a personal attack, that is exactly what you are arguing.

I then pointed out that you are a member of a church which has a long history of child rape problems. That is also accurate, and not a personal attack.

I never claimed you are a child rapist, or anything of the sort. That would have been a personal attack. I was insinuating the fact you belong to that church might be influencing your argument however. You are arguing morality from a Catholic standpoint, are you not?

It may have been worded strongly, however frankly I think the argument you are presenting is morally repugnant (note: I said your argument is morally repugnant, not you as a person, therefore also not a personal attack). Child rape should always be prevented by whoever and whatever means possible, at any time.

To dispute that simple, basic fact about morality is simply inconceivable unless you have some other motivation, like trying to defend a church, or your god. That is why religious morality fails.

I didn't actually report you. See, there I go again, doing nothing about something, right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

I didn't actually report you. See, there I go again, doing nothing about something, right?

Then do you care to address the point?

 

[Landon Caeli]

I never argued any kind of pain or trauma is immoral.

I said failing to prevent a child rape when it was within your power to do so is immoral.

You're creating a strawman.

Ah. So it's me who's creating a strawman now. After comparing the trauma of rape to birth and death. But where did I say you were the one who came up with that comparison..? I never did, because it was me.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Ah. So it's me who's creating a strawman now. After comparing the trauma of rape to birth and death. But where did I say you were the one who came up with that comparison..? I never did, because it was me.

That wasn't the strawman.

The strawman was when you said that I argued that all pain or trauma is immoral. I never once argued that.