Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[Luke17:37]

The 144,000 are a select group who are taken up to Heaven during the Tribulation. You could consider them as an indication that God is not finished with the twelve tribes (which has been the position of the majority of churches for a very long time). Only God knows who belongs to which tribe, but ultimately all the tribes will be settled in the Promised Land under Christ, with David as prince over Israel.

They are sealed so they can be protected from the plagues on the earth. So they live on earth. They are referenced through some of the trumpets and bowls as people who don't receive such and such plagues. Just because they're seen with the Lamb in the beginning of Revelation 14 does not mean they actually leave earth.

 

[Job8]

They are sealed so they can be protected from the plagues on the earth. So they live on earth. They are referenced through some of the trumpets and bowls as people who don't receive such and such plagues. Just because they're seen with the Lamb in the beginning of Revelation 14 does not mean they actually leave earth.

Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

*Before the throne* and *redeemed from the earth* make it quite clear that these 144,000 are in Heaven, along with the four beasts and twenty four elders, praising God in Heaven with a new song. They have been raptured and are shown in Heaven, not on earth. The trumpets and bowls (vials) are for the unbelieving and the ungodly, not for the saints of God.

 

[parousia70]

And here I was beginning to trust that you wouldn't try to ambush me. NO, the tree is the church rooted by Jesus and Israel is Israel. Not everyone on the tree is Israel.

Im not trying to ambush you... I just trying to understand your view.

So tell me, How does what you just said above square with what you said in your OP here?:

In Romans 11, Paul compares Israel to an olive tree with natural branches and branches that have been grafted in to replace natural branches that have been cut off due to their unbelief.

Now Paul is obviously referring to Israel.

Now you say no, Paul is not obviously referring to Israel, he is referring to the Church which you say is a separate, distinct entity...

Which is it?

 

[StanJ]

Huh? What are you saying?
That when Jesus returns, the man of sin will have already been revealed?
(This is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
Or this?
That Jesus will gather the Church and then the Tribulation will start and the man of sin will be revealed? (Clearly violated by the statements of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
The gathering of the elect is described at His return in Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Yes that's right, the man of lawlessness has already been revealed and the apostasy or great Falling Away has started. As Paul says, that day, which means that as soon as these things happen Jesus will return. It gives no indication in the context of this scripture that those days will go on for 3.5 to 7 years.

 

[StanJ]

It seems that there is a stronger argument for spiritual Israel than national Israel in the NT.
Job8 mentioned that the twelve tribes will be restored.
My view id that true Israel is all of the believers, but I also believe that the formation of the State of Israel is part of biblical prophecy and it will play a big role in the Last Days.
So instead of the majority of the nation being converted, it will be 144,000 from all the tribes?

I don't know where you see that but the point is that the promise was to the nation of Israel. Paul tells us is that what makes a Jew is circumcision of the heart not circumcision of the body but that still doesn't mean that one is a Jew spiritually but that spiritually when is circumcised like the Jews were physically. That is the reality of the New Covenant for them. In fact our Crown if you will is eternal life and thus there will be no spiritual Kingdom when Jesus returns as he will bring with him eternal life for all believers and for the Jews that will accept him as their National Messiah. All of us will inherit and receive our eternal life at that point in time. Gentiles have no part of the old Covenant as it was directed solely to Israel but we do have a part in the New Covenant and as such we will be rewarded based on that Covenant.
The hundred and forty four thousand are specific and they are specifically named in Revelation 7 not only that but they are specifically identified as virgins and that they will spread the news of Jesus the messiah's return. As per God's promise and Jesus's last revelation they will proselytize and bring the entire nation of Israel to Jesus.

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes that's right, the man of lawlessness has already been revealed and the apostasy or great Falling Away has started. As Paul says, that day, which means that as soon as these things happen Jesus will return. It gives no indication in the context of this scripture that those days will go on for 3.5 to 7 years.

So you're pre-Trib. No, that's not what it says. It says the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him won't occur until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, who sets himself up as God. It doesn't say that once these appear Jesus will come back immediately.

 

[Luke17:37]

Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

*Before the throne* and *redeemed from the earth* make it quite clear that these 144,000 are in Heaven, along with the four beasts and twenty four elders, praising God in Heaven with a new song. They have been raptured and are shown in Heaven, not on earth. The trumpets and bowls (vials) are for the unbelieving and the ungodly, not for the saints of God.

You're assuming they were raptured but the Bible doesn't say it. They could have a vision like Isaiah, Paul, John and others.

They are listed on earth as being the only ones excluded from a plague (note that it also says they are in Mt. Zion in Revelation 14):

Revelation 9:4 (Fifth Trumpet)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

I maintain they are still on earth. That was presented as the reason they received the special seal in the first place (Revelation 7:2-3)--to protect them from the plagues coming upon the earth.

The first bowl comes on those with the mark of the beast. I believe the first trumpet and first bowl (etc.) correspond and are simultaneously fulfilled--like two different camera angles recording one event. The fifth bowl plunges the kingdom of the beast into darkness. I think the bowls are focused on the kingdom of the beast (and its subjects) and the trumpets are the universal view. I think all the Christians will be killed except the 144,000 by the time the fifth trumpet is blown, except I believe up to 1/3 of the Israelites will come to Christ in their agony before He returns (Hosea 5:14-6:3, Isaiah 25:9, Zechariah 13:8-9).

 

[ewq1938]

Paul refers to us as an olive tree made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted in ... Jews are natural branches and many were cut off and the remnant were grafted back in

I was only saying not all natural branches were grafted because your previous post left out some were never removed in the first place.

 

[ewq1938]

Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

*Before the throne* and *redeemed from the earth* make it quite clear that these 144,000 are in Heaven, along with the four beasts and twenty four elders, praising God in Heaven with a new song.

how can they be singing if they are learning the song? Obviously they are being sung to and are learning the song. Others are in heaven doing the singing. The 144k are upon the Earth.

 

[dfw69]

The remnant were never cut off. The remnant were the natural branches that received the Messiah. They stayed put.

Yes

 

[dfw69]

I was only saying not all natural branches were grafted because your previous post left out some were never removed in the first place.

Ok

 

[dfw69]

The Bible teaches differently. As a nation Israel rejected the Messiah and although individually Jews have been saved down through the years, as a nation they have never acknowledged Jesus as their savior. This will happen in the tribulation and as a nation they will be saved. They will experience the Antichrist first hand and the desolation that he causes and as such will be motivated to know that he is their Messiah returning not just for them before all believers.

God will not give up on anyone Jew or gentile who calls upon the name of the lord to be saved who repent and convert to the new covenant to believe Jesus is lord

 

[StanJ]

Im not trying to ambush you... I just trying to understand your view.
So tell me, How does what you just said above square with what you said in your OP here?:
Now you say no, Paul is not obviously referring to Israel, he is referring to the Church which you say is a separate, distinct entity...
Which is it?

Well seeing as I'm not the OP, then maybe you're confusing me with the OP? You may want to read what I posted over again and then re-ask your question, because I'm pretty sure I haven't contradicted myself. Also if you're going to quote me please do it properly and don't quote something that I didn't write.

 

[StanJ]

So you're pre-Trib. No, that's not what it says. It says the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him won't occur until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, who sets himself up as God. It doesn't say that once these appear Jesus will come back immediately.

Yes I am, and Paul states; Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Paul said nothing about 'after', as you can plainly see from the above quote. The apostasy is not a one day thing so when it starts to occur and the man of lawlessness is revealed, then that is the day when Jesus will return.

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes I am, and Paul states; Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Paul said nothing about 'after', as you can plainly see from the above quote. The apostasy is not a one day thing so when it starts to occur and the man of lawlessness is revealed, then that is the day when Jesus will return.

The (great) apostasy happens and the man of sin is revealed in the Tribulation.

 

[StanJ]

God will not give up on anyone Jew or gentile who calls upon the name of the lord to be saved who repent and convert to the new covenant to believe Jesus is lord

As Peter confirms in 2 Peter 3:9

 

[StanJ]

The (great) apostasy happens and the man of sin is revealed in the Tribulation.

Before

 

[StanJ]

The (great) apostasy happens and the man of sin is revealed in the Tribulation.

Before

 

[ewq1938]

The (great) apostasy happens and the man of sin is revealed in the Tribulation.

Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The revealing is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and ill claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.

 

[Luke17:37]

Before

Why do you believe the great apostasy and the man of sin is revealed before the Tribulation?

Daniel 11:36
36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Daniel 9:25
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Daniel 13:5-7
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Here he blasphemes God and makes war with the saints for a time, times and half a time, or 42 months. Sounds like the Tribulation to me.

Compare these with the man of sin:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I believe that the time the beast has authority over the saints to kill them is the last 3.5 years of the seven year Tribulation. I believe he will appear at the beginning of the Tribulation as the conqueror of the first seal, but he will not start out by putting Christians to death. I don't believe the beast of the earth will appear until the middle of the Tribulation and that he will deceive the world and cause them to worship the first beast, putting to death anyone who does not. (He enforces the mark of the beast.)

(Concerning the beast of the earth, or the false prophet):

Revelation 13:12-15
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

A significant part of the Tribulation is people falling away from the faith because of false Christs, persecution, false returns of Christ and false prophets (Matthew 24). The parable of the virgins suggests to me that possibly half of Christians will commit apostasy. Jesus laments concerning the scarcity of the elect at His return, implying that many will forsake Him because they think He's taking too long to avenge them:

Luke 18:7-8
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

And many scoffers will stop believing in a literal, bodily return of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9) because he's taken longer than they thought and because foundationally they rejected the clear teachings about the beginning (God's creation and the worldwide flood) so they don't believe the clear teachings about the end.

Because we know that in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, each week is 7 years (this was true of the first 69 weeks which were fulfilled), so we believe the last week is also 7 years and is yet to come--the time of the Jews (where primarily Jews or Israelites are being saved) just before the Lord's return.

Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This divides the 70th week in half - one where he makes a covenant and the second where he brings an end to sacrifice and offering. It could mean there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem, but not necessarily. It could just mean that it becomes illegal to practice Christianity. The abomination of desolation could be desecrating a new temple in Jerusalem or maybe it refers to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit I think will occur if Christians take the mark of the beast in their bodily temple. Half of 7 years is 3.5, which is equal to a time, times, and a half a time or 42 months.