Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[StanJ]

God will not give up on anyone ..Jew or gentile who call upon the name of the lord

The Bible teaches differently. As a nation Israel rejected the Messiah and although individually Jews have been saved down through the years, as a nation they have never acknowledged Jesus as their savior. This will happen in the tribulation and as a nation they will be saved. They will experience the Antichrist first hand and the desolation that he causes and as such will be motivated to know that he is their Messiah returning not just for them before all believers.

 

[parousia70]

... Jews are natural branches and many were cut off and the remnant were grafted back in ...

The remnant were never cut off. The remnant were the natural branches that received the Messiah. They stayed put.

 

[parousia70]

Romans 11 the Olive Tree is representative of the body of Christ or the church.

Agreed

It started out with Israel but as they would not accept the Messiah then those unbelieving branches were broken off and Gentiles were grafted in.

But believing Israel, those natural branches that accepted Messiah, were never broken off.
The faithful remnant of Israel remained attached to the root, and as I mentioned before, we must never count the continuation of Israel through the disobedient sons. Israel only continues through the faithful remnant.

Gentiles do not replace Israel in this scenario, they simply add to the growing root.

Yes they are added to the root, which is Israel.

V25-32 show us that all Israel will ultimately be saved. The same cannot be said of all gentiles.

How do you Define all?

Do you claim ALL natural branches that have already died in disbelief... ALL those disobedient, Messiah rejecting sons of Abraham throughout the centuries leading up to ours, who have already passed from this life in full rejection of Messiah, will actually be saved?

 

[StanJ]

But believing Israel, those natural branches that accepted Messiah, were never broken off.
The faithful remnant of Israel remained attached to the root, and as I mentioned before, we must never count the continuation of Israel through the disobedient sons. Israel only continues through the faithful remnant.

Yes that's what I said.

Yes they are added to the root, which is Israel.

No, the root is Jesus, the branches are Israel or at least the remnant, those who accepted Jesus.

How do you Define all?

All Peoples of the world that were/are not Israel.

Do you claim ALL natural branches that have already died in disbelief... ALL those disobedient, Messiah rejecting sons of Abraham throughout the centuries leading up to ours, who have already passed from this life in full rejection of Messiah, will actually be saved?

Those who believed as Abraham's did, are part of the remnant therefore are part of the tree just as Abraham is. I tend to believe that all of Israel will be those that are alive when Jesus returns to Israel and the lost tribes. I could not except that Paul means all Israel who have ever existed but never believed as Abraham did.

 

[parousia70]

Yes that's what I said.

Excelent

No, the root is Jesus, the branches are Israel or at least the remnant, those who accepted Jesus.

So you are saying that the remnant of Natural branches along with the grafted in Wild & Natural branches, indeed all people who believe in Israels Messiah, are True Israel?

I tend to believe that all of Israel will be those that are alive when Jesus returns to Israel and the lost tribes. I could not except that Paul means all Israel who have ever existed but never believed as Abraham did.

So you allow for some literary licence with the term "all Israel", since you don't believe it really means ALL Israel. In this context you are saying Paul means "all believers in Messiah" are "all Israel", Yes?

Thanks for clarifying

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

This Mass conversion to use your words will happen during the tribulation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14 will be evangelists that will preach to the children of Israel and the lost tribes and bring them all to accept Jesus as their savior and as such all of Israel will be saved out of the tribulation.

How is 144,000 all of Israel? Is it all of spiritual Israel?

 

[parousia70]

How is 144,000 all of Israel? Is it all of spiritual Israel?

Well since True Israel is always, and has always been, defined by obedience rather than DNA, what other Israel can there be besides "spiritual Israel"?

 

[Luke17:37]

So what I am getting is that the tree or the roots is Jesus and the branches are all the people who have placed their faith in Him.

The ethnic Jews were cut off donto their disbelief. However, if they repent and come to believe, they may be grafted in again.

However, Pauls states that God has not given up on Israel, which here could mean the Jewish people, and it seems that He still has a plan for them. This plan could be a mass conversion of the Jewish people or a restoration of the homeland, like we see with the nation of Israel.

Check out Zechariah 13:8-9. 1/3 of Israelites will come to faith and the 2/3 will die.

Also see Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:3.

The land of Israel will increase according to the promised borders (Genesis 15:18, Isaiah 27:12). The Israelites in other nations will be gathered (e.g., Isaiah 27:13).

 

[Luke17:37]

How is 144,000 all of Israel? Is it all of spiritual Israel?

No, 144,000 is just a subset of Israelites who worship Jesus as their Messiah.

 

[Job8]

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

It would be a mistake to talk about "Olive Tree Theology" since this is just a metaphor to explain the relationship of Jews (Israelites to be more spefific) and Gentiles within the Body of Christ. Believing Israelites (from every tribe) are presented as "the good olive tree" and unbelieving Israelites are the branches which were broken off. Ideally, every Israelite should have been a believing Israelite, but as we know the majority of Jews rejected Christ.

On the other hand believing Gentiles are branches for "the wild olive tree" which were grafted into the good olive tree. What this means is that the Church was Jewish to begin with, and Gentiles were added to the Church (and will continue to be added until "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"). Once this happens, and the Church is completed, Christ will take the Church to Heaven, and resume His dealings with the Jews on earth at the Second Coming. This will include the redemption and restoration of the twelve tribes of Israel, which are shown as a microcosm in the 144,000 redeemed Israelites in Revelation.

 

[StanJ]

So you are saying that the remnant of Natural branches along with the grafted in Wild & Natural branches, indeed all people who believe in Israels Messiah, are True Israel?

And here I was beginning to trust that you wouldn't try to ambush me. NO, the tree is the church rooted by Jesus and Israel is Israel. Not everyone on the tree is Israel. Remember Jesus said he had two flocks.

So you allow for some literary licence with the term "all Israel", since you don't believe it really means ALL Israel. In this context you are saying Paul means "all believers in Messiah" are "all Israel", Yes?
Thanks for clarifying

In the context of what Paul is talking about, it is all Israel including the lost tribes. In the context of the tree it is not all Israel that is in the tree nor is that all Gentiles that is in the tree but it will be considered the full number that have come in when Jesus returns

 

[Luke17:37]

Once this happens, and the Church is completed, Christ will take the Church to Heaven, and resume His dealings with the Jews on earth at the Second Coming.

I agreed with what you said until this sentence where you appear to teach pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Church will endure as long as the earth endures. Scripture doesn't promise or suggest that believers are gathered before the Tribulation. They are gathered after the Tribulation, at the return of Christ (Matthew 24:29-31). As Paul taught the Thessalonians, do not be deceived: the gathering won't come until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (who proclaims himself to be God and demands that men worship him) (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). Compare the man of sin with the beast of the sea (Revelation 13).

Also, at the gathering, surviving believers will meet Jesus in the sky but it says nothing about going to heaven after that point. (The gathering is just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, at His coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). Revelation 20:4-6 says the resurrected believers will reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

 

[StanJ]

How is 144,000 all of Israel? Is it all of spiritual Israel?

I didn't say it was all of Israel I said they will be chosen as per Revelations 7 and will be sent out into the world to evangelize all of Israel and the lost tribes to bring them to Jesus as their Messiah. That is how all Israel will be saved.

 

[StanJ]

I agreed with what you said until this sentence where you taught pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. The Church will endure as long as the earth endures. Scripture doesn't promise or suggest that believers are gathered before the Tribulation. They are gathered after the Tribulation, at the return of Christ (Matthew 24:29-31). As Paul taught the Thessalonians, do not be deceived: the gathering won't come until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (who proclaims himself to be God and demands that men worship him) (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). Compare the man of sin with the beast of the sea (Revelation 13).

And that would be before the tribulation starts because when Jesus returns the man of lawlessness will be revealed. That revelation will be the beginning of the tribulation. He is not revealed halfway through the tribulation or at the end of the tribulation. The man of lawlessness is the beginning of the tribulation.

 

[Luke17:37]

And that would be before the tribulation starts because when Jesus returns the man of lawlessness will be revealed. That revelation will be the beginning of the tribulation. He is not revealed halfway through the tribulation or at the end of the tribulation. The man of lawlessness is the beginning of the tribulation.

Huh? What are you saying?

That when Jesus returns, the man of sin will have already been revealed?
(This is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Or this?

That Jesus will gather the Church and then the Tribulation will start and the man of sin will be revealed? (Clearly violated by the statements of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

The gathering of the elect is described at His return in Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I didn't say it was all of Israel I said they will be chosen as per Revelations 7 and will be sent out into the world to evangelize all of Israel and the lost tribes to bring them to Jesus as their Messiah. That is how all Israel will be saved.

It seems that there is a stronger argument for spiritual Israel than national Israel in the NT.

Job8 mentioned that the twelve tribes will be restored.

My view id that true Israel is all of the believers, but I also believe that the formation of the State of Israel is part of biblical prophecy and it will play a big role in the Last Days.

So instead of the majority of the nation being converted, it will be 144,000 from all the tribes?

 

[Job8]

Well since True Israel is always, and has always been, defined by obedience rather than DNA, what other Israel can there be besides "spiritual Israel"?

As Paul makes it abundantly clear, it is not obedience but faith which saves true Israel. But Israel as a nation is not obliterated simply because the Church has come into existence. The apostles expected the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, and in the future that will be exactly as prophesied. In the interim, Christ is building His Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body).

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

 

[Job8]

So instead of the majority of the nation being converted, it will be 144,000 from all the tribes?

The 144,000 are a select group who are taken up to Heaven during the Tribulation. You could consider them as an indication that God is not finished with the twelve tribes (which has been the position of the majority of churches for a very long time). Only God knows who belongs to which tribe, but ultimately all the tribes will be settled in the Promised Land under Christ, with David as prince over Israel.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the church came about in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

In which all congregations are unique. The times and the seasons also have an effect on the congregations as well.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that this Laodicean age sets us up for the great falling away before Christ comes again. I visited a Baptist church and they divided the congregation into the young and the old. The young went into a building in which you could hear the gospel rock coming through the walls. I would discern that the Father is getting tired of dealing with the churches and that his favor is once again falling upon Israel.

I would look for the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 before Christ's coming. If all the Islamic armies come against Israel and are defeating by God the Father himself can you imagine the effect that will have on Israel and Messianic Judaism? I would look for a re-resurgence indeed!

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. - Ezekiel 38:8

This prophecy indeed sounds close as it would happen in the latter, not the last, years into Israel which was brought back from the sword.

 

[Luke17:37]

It seems that there is a stronger argument for spiritual Israel than national Israel in the NT.

Job8 mentioned that the twelve tribes will be restored.

My view id that true Israel is all of the believers, but I also believe that the formation of the State of Israel is part of biblical prophecy and it will play a big role in the Last Days.

So instead of the majority of the nation being converted, it will be 144,000 from all the tribes?

1/3 of Israelites will be converted (Zechariah 13:8-9). The 144,000 are just a subset of those. They are chosen to be protected from the plagues that come on the earth (Revelation 7:1-8). The rest of the Church (Gentiles and Jews) are persecuted by the beast's kingdom and personally I believe they will be slain (Revelation 12:17). There will be a Jewish revival in the midst of this Tribulation, though (Hosea 5:14-15 and Hosea 6:1-3) as mentioned above.