Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Hello!

In Romans 11, Paul compares Israel to an olive tree with natural branches and branches that have been grafted in to replace natural branches that have been cut off due to their unbelief.

Now Paul is obviously referring to Israel. It seems from chapter 11 that Israel or ethnic Jews were the branches cut off from the tree due to unbelief so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

However, Paul says that if the natural branches do not cotinuebin their unbelief, thet will be grafted back in.

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

 

[JM]

Hello!

In Romans 11, Paul compares Israel to an olive tree with natural branches and branches that have been grafted in to replace natural branches that have been cut off due to their unbelief.

Now Paul is obviously referring to Israel. It seems from chapter 11 that Israel or ethnic Jews were the branches cut off from the tree due to unbelief so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

However, Paul says that if the natural branches do not cotinuebin their unbelief, thet will be grafted back in.

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

Great question. I'll subscribe now and offer an answer when time permits.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: How does Paul view Israel after the flesh?

 

[Salem]

The Jewish nation will, ultimately, be saved by sight, at the return of the Lord to earth, this scripture in Zechariah:

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Aside from Revelation, the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament are filled with information about end times Israel, as well as into the millennium. Googling something like Israel in Bible prophecy or the like can narrow the focus, being wary of some of the exegesis, but you can collect a lot of scripture to look at this way. It's a rather slow and intensive study that takes time, much information spread around in scripture, a verse here, some verses there, and you'll see a lot of information about war, the Lord's judgments, of nations that are Israel's enemies that can be difficult to sort. Ezekiel has amazing things, from now and clear into the millennium kingdom. But there's tons more detail about Israel's destiny in the Old Testament.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

The Jewish nation will, ultimately, be saved by sight, at the return of the Lord to earth, this scripture in Zechariah:

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Aside from Revelation, the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament are filled with information about end times Israel, as well as into the millennium. Googling something like Israel in Bible prophecy or the like can narrow the focus, being wary of some of the exegesis, but you can collect a lot of scripture to look at this way. It's a rather slow and intensive study that takes time, much information spread around in scripture, a verse here, some verses there, and you'll see a lot of information about war and nations that are Israel's enemies that can be difficult to sort. Ezekiel has amazing things, from now and clear into the millennium kingdom. But there's tons more detail about Israel's destiny in the Old Testament.

The OT seems to teach dispensationalism to me while the NT seems more Covenant Theology except for Revelations.

I think dispensationalism is a little extreme, even though I do agree that the church and Israel are separate entities.

 

[Salem]

The OT seems to teach dispensationalism to me while the NT seems more Covenant Theology except for Revelations.

I think dispensationalism is a little extreme, even though I do agree that the church and Israel are separate entities.

Your major dispensations are merely an outline of God's program over time, are doctrinally neutral, when properly taught. (There are these dispensational cults springing up, with their dispensations under every rock, which is another subject.) It's not the exegetical school the critics claim, the real school, the real issue whether one subscribes to literal Bible interpretation, the dispute over the meaning of scripture and the gross error of allegorizing it away. I believe the Bible, believe it's literal, unless clearly otherwise, and believe only those who prove their doctrine by harmonious scripture, what's behind many disputes doctrines of men and their denominations I really couldn't care less about, a race I have no horse in. I was long into literal Bible interpretation, before presented the dispensational view by some teachers. It was actually innocuous, just making a neat timeline of God's progressive program, no big deal. And it had no impact on my prior doctrinal beliefs, finding nothing objectionable in it, but no game changers, nor has it had any impact on my ongoing life's study of scripture. Again, what makes the Preterist or Amillennialist jump up and down is literal Bible interpretation, which I've always done, regardless dispensations or the myriad of -ists or -isms out there, many the fabrications of man that have nothing to do with the price of tea in China to me. What one understands is true, or it's error, based on thus saith the Lord, not thus saith Denomination Man. At the core, it's even rather simple. It takes man's confused and corrupt brain to muck it all up, our God a God of reason, and not the author of confusion.

 

[parousia70]

I think dispensationalism is a little extreme, even though I do agree that the church and Israel are separate entities.

Are they?
You just stated that the Olive tree = Israel

Unbelieving Branches (Those Genetic Hebrews that rejected Messiah) were cut out of that Olive tree (Israel)

Messiah Believing Gentiles, and Genetic Hebrews who do not continue in their unbelief in Messiah are Grafted into that Olive tree (Israel)

From that, Where do you get that the Natural Branches that were NOT cut off, along with those natural and wild branches grafted into the Olive tree (Israel), have ceased to be Israel?

At what point in the story does the Olive tree(Israel) cease to be Israel?

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Are they?
You just stated that the Olive tree = Israel

Unbelieving Branches (Those Genetic Hebrews that rejected Messiah) were cut out of that Olive tree (Israel)

Messiah Believing Gentiles, and Genetic Hebrews who do not continue in their unbelief in Messiah are Grafted into that Olive tree (Israel)

From that, Where do you get that the Branches that were NOT cut off the Olive tree (Israel), and therefore the olive tree itself(Israel), have ceased to be Israel?

At what point in the story does the Olive tree(Israel) cease to be Israel?

The olive tree does not cease being Israel. The confusion for me is where national Israel fits in this if it fits in this imagery at all.

 

[parousia70]

The olive tree does not cease being Israel.

If your contention is:
The Olive Tree = Israel
And
Messiah Believing Natural and Wild Branches of that tree = Israel
And
Messiah Believing Natural and Wild Branches of that tree = The Church
Then how can you say
The Church does not = Israel?

 

[parousia70]

The confusion for me is where national Israel fits in this if it fits in this imagery at all.

Well, many folks here have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (they count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham, the natural branches NOT cut out of the tree).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

 

[Hazrus]

National Israel is a disparate group of multi-ethnic people. I could be wrong, however I believe the Jews who don't believe in Jesus are an object of wrath, just like non-Jews who don't believe in Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

Hello!

In Romans 11, Paul compares Israel to an olive tree with natural branches and branches that have been grafted in to replace natural branches that have been cut off due to their unbelief.

He does not say the new branches are replacing the removed ones. The new branches are added because they believe in Christ. The branches that don't believe in Christ are removed. There is no replacing.

Now Paul is obviously referring to Israel. It seems from chapter 11 that Israel or ethnic Jews were the branches cut off from the tree due to unbelief so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

Again, Paul specifically speaks against that idea. No room needs to be made for the gentiles. The tree has unlimited room. Some of the natural branches rejected Christ so they were removed because of that not to make room for anyone else.

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

Scripture is silent on that. All we know is if you want eternal life you have to accept Jesus. Anyone that doesn't, will die the second death. Ethnicity is meaningless concerning these things.

 

[ewq1938]

The Jewish nation will, ultimately, be saved by sight, at the return of the Lord to earth, this scripture in Zechariah:

Salvation does not work by "sight".

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

There is nothing about a mass conversion to Jesus here. They mourn when they see Christ return. Mourning at that time is done by the unsaved who will be receiving the wrath of God.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Same thing happens to all people on the Earth when Christ returns but this is not a worldwide conversion to Christianity. The unsaved mourn because they are sad and scared, ashamed of what they have done.


Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.


They all are about to experience the vials of God's wrath which Revelation describes. Many will die.
Revelation also says they refuse to repent.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The only time I see where repentance might be possible is during the Millennium when Satan no longer can deceive those that refused Christ. But at the second coming Satan still has the power to deceive and that deception is so strong people refuse to repent even through the painful vials of God's wrath. So, the time for Jews or any non-Christian to repent and finally recognize the Messiah would be the Millennium.

 

[dfw69]

Jesus is the one and only true Israel .. He is the vine ...we (Jews and Gentiles) are the branches grafted into the kingdom of heaven through messiah .. That's my take on the subject anyway... Peace

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus is the one and only true Israel .. He is the vine ...we (Jews and Gentiles) are the branches grafted into the kingdom of heaven through messiah

Not all the branches are grafted onto the tree though.

 

[dfw69]

Not all the branches are grafted onto the tree though.

Jesus refered to himself as the root of a grapevine and his branches must bear fruit or be cut off... Bearing fruit of love for one another and abiding in his commandments John 15:1-17

Paul refers to us as an olive tree made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted in ... Jews are natural branches and many were cut off and the remnant were grafted back in ... Gentiles were wild branches grafted in ... Both must be grafted in through Christ alone ..by way of the new covenant

In order to be grafted back into the covenant promises ... One must recieve at first and become fallen away and then return to be grafted in ...yet not everyone who first heard and received the new covenant commandments have fallen away but remain as branches of Jesus and bear fruit...these faithful are Jew and gentile of all ages who remained in the faith

 

[StanJ]

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

Romans 11 the Olive Tree is representative of the body of Christ or the church. It started out with Israel but as they would not accept the Messiah then those unbelieving branches were broken off and Gentiles were grafted in. Gentiles do not replace Israel in this scenario, they simply add to the growing root. V25-32 show us that all Israel will ultimately be saved. The same cannot be said of all gentiles.
This has to do with the true tribes of Israel as depicted in Revelation 7:5-8

 

[Salem]

Salvation does not work by "sight".

That was merely a phrase, meaning the tribulation remnant will come to acknowledge Jesus Christ when He comes and puts down their enemies, when they see Him, just as Thomas didn't believe until seeing the risen Lord. It was merely a figure of speech, that they don't come around until they see His salvation of the nation and His person, as opposed to believing in Him before all these things.

Everybody knows salvation is of the Lord, His grace, but the passage also very clearly states, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications." Scripture teaches of the repentant that mourn their error: try reading the Beatitudes that this is blessed. And your references to scripture are misapplied to Zechariah, in that your references to mourning are all the tribes of the earth, the rebellious, or a reference to people laughing in their evil, who will be turned to mourning, the verses you quote not even the same subjects nor focused on Israel, not even post-Armageddon. Zechariah even states they are mourning as over an only son, like a firstborn, are mourning in love of the Lord, not an enemy. I've seldom seen anybody who has so little comprehension of what is in a scripture passage, though have seen many who use other scripture they neither understand, thinking unrelated scripture is proving their point, instead demonstrating their lack of understanding even more scripture all they're really doing.

Stop making stuff up. You're just mangling scripture, making senseless connections that aren't there, no harmony, as if words are always used one way, as if whole paragraphs of different subject matter are saying the same things if they share a word. Read the context, what is actually said! Often, if you carefully read what's there, before creating your own doctrines, like that these are damned Jews (Jews it states the Lord is pouring His grace on, putting the lie to your claims), if you have the Spirit and read to comprehend, you have a shot at understanding scripture.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

So what I am getting is that the tree or the roots is Jesus and the branches are all the people who have placed their faith in Him.

The ethnic Jews were cut off donto their disbelief. However, if they repent and come to believe, they may be grafted in again.

However, Pauls states that God has not given up on Israel, which here could mean the Jewish people, and it seems that He still has a plan for them. This plan could be a mass conversion of the Jewish people or a restoration of the homeland, like we see with the nation of Israel.

 

[dfw69]

So what I am getting is that the tree or the roots is Jesus and the branches are all the people who have placed their faith in Him.

The ethnic Jews were cut off donto their disbelief. However, if they repent and come to believe, they may be grafted in again.

However, Pauls states that God has not given up on Israel, which here could mean the Jewish people, and it seems that He still has a plan for them. This plan could be a mass conversion of the Jewish people or a restoration of the homeland, like we see with the nation of Israel.

God will not give up on anyone ..Jew or gentile who call upon the name of the lord

 

[StanJ]

However, Pauls states that God has not given up on Israel, which here could mean the Jewish people, and it seems that He still has a plan for them. This plan could be a mass conversion of the Jewish people or a restoration of the homeland, like we see with the nation of Israel.

This Mass conversion to use your words will happen during the tribulation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14 will be evangelists that will preach to the children of Israel and the lost tribes and bring them all to accept Jesus as their savior and as such all of Israel will be saved out of the tribulation.