Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[Jay Follett]

I think that supernatural events occur all the time.

One question, how can you tell they are supernatural events?
For an answer (that's if I even get an answer) I bet it's a question.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I know a couple of people like that in our church.

Can you give me some tips on how I should treat them?

Not many holidays you would celebrate with them in which you can limit or control how the event plays out for them. I wouldn't give any special treatment; sometimes people gotta suck in their antisocial tendencies for the sake of others. My mother would be crushed if I never celebrated a holiday with her again. She'd lose valuable photo opportunities.

Those that celebrate holidays and hate them do it for the sake of others, or don't do it at all. I can't speak for others, but I personally find funerals and weddings to be the most distasteful events to get dragged to, as they carry with them everything I hate about holidays and then some. Those are the only such events I can think of that a person could feel obligated to attend without necessarily being pressured by a family member or the entirety of the community.

 

[PsychoSarah]

deleted

 

[JacksBratt]

One question, how can you tell they are supernatural events?
For an answer (that's if I even get an answer) I bet it's a question.

Supernatural events are those that defy or fall outside the natural laws of this dimension or nature.
Now my questions. Why would you say "For an answer (that's if I even get an answer) I bet it's a question."? Did you think that your question was so difficult that I would ignore it or try to deflect?

I'm sure you could have answered it yourself anyway:
su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: supernatural
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

 

[Xalith]

Supernatural events are those that defy or fall outside the natural laws of this dimension or nature.
Now my questions. Why would you say "For an answer (that's if I even get an answer) I bet it's a question."? Did you think that your question was so difficult that I would ignore it or try to deflect?

I'm sure you could have answered it yourself anyway:
su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: supernatural
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

I feel like they should have added the word "known" to "laws of nature". I bet, if time travel existed and you took a smartphone or tablet back to the 1800s, they'd think it was possessed by a demon or something, lol. To someone in the 1800s, that phone or tablet would seem like something supernatural, even if we know how it works today.

Perhaps one day, we might know exactly how Jesus walked on the water, or healed leprosy or blindness. We don't know how these things were done now, but we might know later, especially once we get up There.

 

[JacksBratt]

I feel like they should have added the word "known" to "laws of nature". I bet, if time travel existed and you took a smartphone or tablet back to the 1800s, they'd think it was possessed by a demon or something, lol. To someone in the 1800s, that phone or tablet would seem like something supernatural, even if we know how it works today.

Perhaps one day, we might know exactly how Jesus walked on the water, or healed leprosy or blindness. We don't know how these things were done now, but we might know later, especially once we get up There.

You are correct. Advancements in technology can sometimes be explanations to events that were "supernatural" beforehand. I gave the example of the first pioneers baffling the natives by simple written language. I like your examples too.

However, Jesus walking on water, healing diseases (instantaneously), Instantaneously turning water into wine with absolutely no additives and the fact that it was "good wine", and commanding a severe storm to cease....I don't think so.

You must have a far better team of scientists to develop or even explain these events, within the laws that this universe is confined to. Or, maybe my imagination is limited.

 

[Jay Follett]

Supernatural events are those that defy or fall outside the natural laws of this dimension or nature.

You answer with rubbish and expect me to believe it, perhaps that's why you are the Christian and I'm not?

Now my questions. Why would you say "For an answer (that's if I even get an answer) I bet it's a question."? Did you think that your question was so difficult that I would ignore it or try to deflect?

The question is not only difficult for you to answer it's impossible, you can answer with rubbish as you just did but that's not an answer.
I asked : One question, how can you tell they are supernatural events?
and this is how you answered: Supernatural events are those that defy or fall outside the natural laws of this dimension or nature.
If you think for one second that you answered the question you have bigger problems than I thought.

Unfortunately I believe you honestly think there is a 'supernatural world' somewhere and there's a place 'outside' of this universe where the natural laws do not apply, I think it's called 'cloud cuckoo land'.

I don't think there is any need for further posts because we are both just wasting our time.

 

[Xalith]

You must have a far better team of scientists to develop or even explain these events, within the laws that this universe is confined to. Or, maybe my imagination is limited.

What I'm saying is that the only One who knows what is possible and not possible with His creation, would be the Creator Himself.

Obviously, Jesus would know how this stuff would be possible, but we don't.

Maybe there is a non-supernatural explanation. Maybe there isn't. I'm not ruling out the possibility that there's a scientific explanation. It just hasn't been found yet, if it does exist. If it doesn't, then it doesn't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are correct. Advancements in technology can sometimes be explanations to events that were "supernatural" beforehand. I gave the example of the first pioneers baffling the natives by simple written language. I like your examples too.

However, Jesus walking on water, healing diseases (instantaneously), Instantaneously turning water into wine with absolutely no additives and the fact that it was "good wine", and commanding a severe storm to cease....I don't think so.

You must have a far better team of scientists to develop or even explain these events, within the laws that this universe is confined to. Or, maybe my imagination is limited.

Turning water into wine is a parlor trick so easy that even I can pull it off with a few tries. Furthermore, never underestimate the telephone game and the almighty power of exaggeration. "healing instantly" could be an exaggeration of Jesus having treatments to ailments that worked moderately well, and given that Jewish medical practices at the time were better in that geographical area than most other groups, they would have reason to find that impressive. Medical men at the time were often viewed as magic, even though their treatments really weren't. Also, I don't see how it being good wine would matter, and good wine from that time period would still suck by today's standards.

 

[JacksBratt]

You answer with rubbish and expect me to believe it, perhaps that's why you are the Christian and I'm not?The question is not only difficult for you to answer it's impossible, you can answer with rubbish as you just did but that's not an answer.

Rubbish, that's what you call it? You ask how I can tell what is super natural and I even give you a definition of the word from a textbook and you call it rubbish.

Maybe, just maybe you could explain what you are really trying to ask then. Most people consider anything that is outside the possibilities of nature to be "supernatural". In fact, "supernatural" is a compound word. It joins "super":

super-
prefix
1.
placed above or over:
2.
of greater size, extent, quality,
3.
surpassing others; outstanding:

and "natural":

adjective
1.
existing in or formed by nature
2.
based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature:

3.
of or relating to nature or the universe:

4.
of, relating to, or occupied with the study of natural science:

5.
in a state of nature; uncultivated,

So, when put together in one word, we get above or beyond the study of natural science or the state of things in nature.

I asked : One question, how can you tell they are supernatural events?
and this is how you answered: Supernatural events are those that defy or fall outside the natural laws of this dimension or nature.
If you think for one second that you answered the question you have bigger problems than I thought.

Your are a funny guy. Let me give a parallel comment. You could have said "I ask you how you can tell if the craft traveled at a super sonic speed and you answered Well it was travelling faster than the speed at which sound travels. So, you haven't answered my question"

Unfortunately I believe you honestly think there is a 'supernatural world' somewhere and there's a place 'outside' of this universe where the natural laws do not apply, I think it's called 'cloud cuckoo land'.

There you have it. You are just a troll, right?

I don't think there is any need for further posts because we are both just wasting our time.

Agreed.

 

[Jay Follett]

Rubbish, that's what you call it? You ask how I can tell what is super natural and I even give you a definition of the word from a textbook and you call it rubbish.

That's exactly right.. I asked how you can tell what is super natural and instead of giving me an answer you give me the definition of a word from a textbook, and you have the nerve to think the rubbish you gave me was an answer.
The sad thing about this is that you think you're right, you see nothing wrong with all of this, as far as you are concerned you genuinely think you gave me an answer. phew...... or do you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Thanks, now I see what your are getting at. I think that supernatural events occur all the time.

Do they actuall happen all the time, making them common occurances?
Or are they rather, rare occurances?

I understand that there is no known cause for some illnesses, however, this is, IMO different than the instantaneous curing of one.

How is it different in terms of the nature of the event, instead of the subjective effect as experienced by some?
How do you tell a supernatural event from a natural event?

Can you give an example of a "spontaneous cure of a disease with far better odds that are labeled as a miracle".

I can't answer that, because I have no statistics on miracles. Miracles can't even be shown to exist. In fact, I've never been given a definition of what a "miracle" is, so that I was or would be able to tell a "miracle" from a "non-miracle".

 

[Jay Follett]

Do they actuall happen all the time, making them common occurances?
Or are they rather, rare occurances?
How is it different in terms of the nature of the event, instead of the subjective effect as experienced by some?
How do you tell a supernatural event from a natural event?
I can't answer that, because I have no statistics on miracles. Miracles can't even be shown to exist. In fact, I've never been given a definition of what a "miracle" is, so that I was or would be able to tell a "miracle" from a "non-miracle".

Religions are deliberately vague because in that way there is confusion and where there is confusion there is uncertainty, uncertainty is the very life blood of all religions, the what if's and the who knows is what kept and keeps the money flowing into the religious coffers.

 

[AV1611VET]

Religions are deliberately vague because in that way there is confusion and where there is confusion there is uncertainty
and uncertainty is the life blood of all religions.

Speaking from experience, are you?

 

[Jay Follett]

Speaking from experience, are you?

No but it's interesting that you don't disagree with me, I expect you do but you know what I wrote makes sense.

 

[AV1611VET]

No but it's interesting that you don't disagree with me, I expect you do but you know what I wrote makes sense.

That's what catechism/new converts classes are for: removing confusion with basic doctrine.

That's why I sound confusing at times about science: I haven't been to their new converts classes.

I get just as perturbed when theology is misrepresented as you guys do when your science gets misrepresented.

How does it feel?

 

[Jay Follett]

That's what catechism/new converts classes are for: removing confusion with basic doctrine.
That's why I sound confusing at times about science: I haven't been to their new converts classes.
I get just as perturbed when theology is misrepresented as you guys do when your science gets misrepresented.
How does it feel?

It's not my science it's just science, science deals with facts and theology deals with myths so there should be no confusion.

 

[AV1611VET]

science deals with facts

Only to a point ... then they stop.

That's how we allegedly got Thalidomide.

 

[Jay Follett]

Only to a point ... then they stop.

That's how we allegedly got Thalidomide.

I am forced at this point to ask how old you are because either you are not very old or your reasoning has let you down,
which is it?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Only to a point ... then they stop.

That's how we allegedly got Thalidomide.

Already explained to you that situation, and how long have you been told not to bring that up? If I recall correctly, you actually upset at least one person to the point that they left the forums because you kept bringing it up.