Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[PsychoSarah]

I called what he believe nonsense and you call that vitriol? what was I supposed to call what he believed? the truth? if you think someone is wrong you say they are wrong you don't beat about the bush.
Religions have been given the benefit of the doubt for too long, it's time people who believed things for no good reason were called on it and asked questions, if someone thought thunder was Thor using his hammer people would laugh in their face, this is no different.

You said he lived in a dream world, which is excessively condescending. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, if you offered evidence along with it, but since when do you benefit from being rude? You aren't calling it like it is; half your posts are baseless claims of other people being fools without even elaborating on what makes them foolish to begin with.

It's the atheist equivalent of saying "evolution is stupid, and you all are pawns of satan that need to trust Jesus in order to be saved from your wretched, illogical atheism", over and over and over without any more content. Do you like it when you are spoken to that way? Do you think that type of talk makes you look good? When you treat others badly, you invite them to do the same, and thanks to the human tendency to generalize, it trickles down, and suddenly all of the atheists on here are treated more rudely because of you.

 

[Dave-W]

Hello, dis Habilis here. Habilis wants to mention: miracles cannot violate natural law if God exits. God has qualities that are part of his nature: Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence. To name a few... If God Omnipresent that means He exists both within and without the universe. If God exists within the universe, he cannot violate the laws of the universe where He is inside it, because this would contradict Himself. God made universe and natural law. He is omnipresent (within the universe). Within universe, God cannot break natural law. Miracle might bend or extend law, but not violate that law.

Sorry, but you are using the wrong logical frame work. Your arguments are based on the Greek (Aristotle) logic system and that is NOT the one used in the bible; nor is God subservient to it.

 

[kla2]

To think in terms of any 'logical framework' is to presume on the omnipotence and omniscience of God. There is no 'natural law' other than what God makes it! And it is not for the 'logic' of man to question the wisdom of God.

 

[sparow]

Sorry, but you are using the wrong logical frame work. Your arguments are based on the Greek (Aristotle) logic system and that is NOT the one used in the bible; nor is God subservient to it.

My own logic tells me miracles have to be rational and operate in the realm of reality; exposure to the irrational (if it really exists) can cause mental dysfunction like PTS (which really happens with UFOs).

 

[Goatee]

God, being God can do anything. Who are we to say what He can and can't do?

 

[Dave-W]

My own logic tells me miracles have to be rational and operate in the realm of reality

What is rational and operates within the normal laws of physics are by definition NOT miracles.

exposure to the irrational (if it really exists) can cause mental dysfunction like PTS

You mean it blows your mind?

It is supposed to.

 

[sparow]

What is rational and operates within the normal laws of physics are by definition NOT miracles.

You mean it blows your mind?

It is supposed to.

There are at least two ways of looking at the Laws of physics: Consider a rubber band on a surface. Everything inside the band is what man has defined as the Law of Physics and every thing out side the band is still Laws of physics but beyond human capacity; my point is outside the band is still rational even though beyond human grasp. The other view is both rational and irrational are totally dependent on the human brain, and beyond human grasp does not exist.

You argument depends on the word normal; why do you insist on the Laws have to be normal or known; why put yourself in a box you cannot think outside of. There is nothing about the definition of miracle in my 1964 Oxford dictionary that would prevent miracles from conforming to laws. Religious People often do have beliefs that do not conform to Laws so for many, miracles may be lawless and irrational.

My understanding is PTS does not cause physical damage but damage to one software or firmware; it is like having ones world view, moral code and personality rolled with a steam engine, although sometimes the cause is slow and creeping but one gets a virus in ones personality.

For example, I know one person who witnessed the Rwandan genocide. He was with a UN medial team who had a clinic on the side of the road, along the road were the UN peace keepers leaning on their rifles watching the people on the road, half had machetes, the other half were being cut to bits; there was something about the prime directive that prevented the peace keepers from interfering; injured people came into the clinic to get bandaged up but then they had to return to the road because the clinic had no room and the one with machetes were waiting to finish the job.

The person I knew had to live the rest of his life semi psychotic and having numerous breakdowns.

Rational and irrational are alternate words for Good and Evil or truth and pagan.

 

[Dave-W]

Rational and irrational are alternate words for Good and Evil or truth and pagan.

You are redefining language to support your point.

God is beyond all logic and "laws" of physics, inside or outside of your box.

 

[sparow]

I don't redefine language, I use it to express my point; I also think at a different level of abstraction than you.

God isn't beyond anything He is everything His existence defines everything. God forbids magic and He doesn't break His own rules; by laws of physics you probably refer to works of men.

 

[FredVB]

If God Omnipresent that means He exists both within and without the universe. If God exists within the universe, he cannot violate the laws of the universe where He is inside it, because this would contradict Himself. God made universe and natural law. He is omnipresent (within the universe). Within universe, God cannot break natural law. Miracle might bend or extend law, but not violate that law.

Sorry, but you are using the wrong logical frame work. Your arguments are based on the Greek (Aristotle) logic system and that is NOT the one used in the bible; nor is God subservient to it.

I understand this. God being present everywhere, with all power and all knowledge, and unlimited otherwise, still does not make any of God being the creation which is from God or that being the same. God would be in it throughout without any bit being it or having it being the same. God would use the processes that are determined by God. But that does not override God's purposes, where exceptions suit God's plans, and we can't say, just being logical, that God can't do that. God with all power and all knowledge can do what God chooses without being under limitation from what is of the creation.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But God Omnipresent right? If so, contradicting natural law contradicts the part of Himself that omnipresent in universe.

God might be in the universe, but He is distinct from it. You sound as though you are talking about pantheism, if I hear you correctly.

 

[FredVB]

God might be in the universe, but He is distinct from it. You sound as though you are talking about pantheism, if I hear you correctly.

This is seemingly a problem some have with thinking of God and the presence that is everywhere without limit. This doesn't have as some seemingly think God being a part of everything in creation with being in everything. God is still not limited by what limits are set in creation. Yahweh God can set the universe according to what is chosen, that which best works according to God's plan, but God is never limited and can make exceptions where it would be desirable to God's own purposes.

 

[Strathos]

I would argue that the very definition of a miracle is an event that violates natural law.

 

[FredVB]

For something being a miracle it would contradict something understood as a natural law. It may still be with other processes involved that are natural with that occurrence different from a natural process. It is only Yahweh God using such that is miraculous.

 

[Renee Tahass]

This is seemingly a problem some have with thinking of God and the presence that is everywhere without limit. This doesn't have as some seemingly think God being a part of everything in creation with being in everything. God is still not limited by what limits are set in creation. Yahweh God can set the universe according to what is chosen, that which best works according to God's plan, but God is never limited and can make exceptions where it would be desirable to God's own purposes.

You failed to also mention that all Gods are imaginary, in the whole existence of mankind anywhere on the planet no Gods have ever been shown to exist, what does that tell you about the imagination of mankind?

 

[AV1611VET]

in the whole existence of mankind anywhere on the planet no Gods have ever been shown to exist, what does that tell you about the imagination of mankind?

Nothing.

But it says a lot about how much you know of history.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God, being God can do anything. Who are we to say what He can and can't do?

Well, if you're a Creationist, you're going to demand that He act in accordance with your interpretation of the Bible...

 

[Goatee]

Well, if you're a Creationist, you're going to demand that He act in accordance with your interpretation of the Bible...

N

 

[Goatee]

Na, not me. God will do what he wants to do. I go along with that

 

[FredVB]

You failed to also mention that all Gods are imaginary, in the whole existence of mankind anywhere on the planet no Gods have ever been shown to exist, what does that tell you about the imagination of mankind?

That was a rather broadbrush assertion, with dismissal of the accounts of many regarding miraculous events intervening in history, that favored belief in God over unbelief. This is so, even though indeed many have come up with such that is or are imagined as gods. There is something of your imagination showing from such communication.