Are you sure it isn't three Gods?

[doubtingmerle]

Though I wear many hats, I have but one Head.

Me, myself, and I, do not make three...unless you focus on just one of the balls I am juggling.

If the trinity is like many hats with one head, why is it not like many gods with one group identity? You seem to be arguing for 3 gods.

Oh, and I don't really care to focus on you juggling your balls

 

[doubtingmerle]

ViaCrucis, you refer to the trinity as three hypostases, and when I asked how that differs from 3 gods, you responded with these definitions (I colored in the relevant portion of the definitions):

god (gŏd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

hy·pos·ta·sis (hī-pŏs′tə-sĭs)
n. pl. hy·pos·ta·ses (-sēz′)
1. Philosophy The substance, essence, or underlying reality.
2. Christianity
a. Any of the persons of the Trinity.
b. The essential person of Jesus in which his human and divine natures are united.
3. Something that has been hypostatized.
4.
a. A settling of solid particles in a fluid.
b. Something that settles to the bottom of a fluid; sediment.
5. Medicine The settling of blood in the lower part of an organ or the body as a result of decreased blood flow.
6. Genetics A condition in which the action of one gene is concealed or suppressed by the action of an allele of a different gene that affects the same part or biochemical process in an organism.

Which isn't helping me much. Hypostasis is defined as nothing more than one of the three persons of the trinity. So you seem to be saying, no it is not 3 gods, it is 3 persons.

OK, so suppose a polytheists says that there are 3 divine persons in heaven that work together in one unity. Does your belief substantially differ with this polytheist?

 

[ScottA]

If the trinity is like many hats with one head, why is it not like many gods with one group identity? You seem to be arguing for 3 gods.

Oh, and I don't really care to focus on you juggling your balls

You are looking at my analogy backwards. I did not say three heads...but rather one head, with three hats.

I also said, Me, Myself, and I, as an example of one person who may be known in different ways: to some as Father, to others as Son, and still to others as Carpenter, etc.

 

[katerinah1947]

You are looking at my analogy backwards. I did not say three heads...but rather one head, with three hats.

I also said, Me, Myself, and I, as an example of one person who may be known in different ways: to some as Father, to others as Son, and still to others as Carpenter, etc.

Hi,

Very good and very close.

Just as these others here, including myself we can be three things, a worker to others and ourselves even, we can also be children that way and parents that way.

Each of the Three ~of them are that, within themselves~ Unlike us though, who no one else is like, ~for them The Holy Spirit, the worker in them is identical. So it the Son. So is The Father~

That part you have well or are understanding perfectly or better.

The hard parts are in understanding how God actually begat a son, when there was no wife, no womb around, and no one to mate with.

Two did not become one and begat. God One, and God two, out of hundreds or thousands of Gods, and one who is female did not meet and fall in love with God one. They did not then join and have a child.

How does a God, when there are no other God's Procreate?

In essence, he has two sons. Both Jesus and The Holy Spirit are the equivalent of two Begotten Sons, but those words are not and have never been used yet, by us, and they Certainly are not in The Bible.

How did God procreate? How did God send The Spirit?

I actually do have an answer to those questions.

LOVE,

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi,

Very good and very close.

Just as these others here, including myself we can be three things, a worker to others and ourselves even, we can also be children that way and parents that way.

Each of the Three ~of them are that, within themselves~ Unlike us though, who no one else is like, ~for them The Holy Spirit, the worker in them is identical. So it the Son. So is The Father~

That part you have well or are understanding perfectly or better.

The hard parts are in understanding how God actually begat a son, when there was no wife, no womb around, and no one to mate with.

Two did not become one and begat. God One, and God two, out of hundreds or thousands of Gods, an one who is female did not meet and fall in love with God one. They did not then join and have a child.

How does a God, when there are no other God's Procreate?

In essence, he has two sons. Both Jesus and The Holy Spirit are the equivalent of two Begotten Sons, but those words are not and have never been used yet, by us, and they Certainly are not in The Bible.

How did God procreate? How did God send The Spirit?

LOVE,

I'm sorry... but you're response here doesn't make sense to me.

Also, ScottA's explanation isn't the Trinity at all (as ViaCruis pointed out post #71).

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm sorry... but you're response here doesn't make sense to me.

Also, ScottA's explanation isn't the Trinity at all (as ViaCruis pointed out post #71).

Hi,

What part does not make any sense?????

I can barely undestand post 71. What I did understand does not apply here.

LOVE,

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi,

What part does not make any sense?????

LOVE,

I'll break it down--

Just as these others here, including myself we can be three things, a worker to others and ourselves even, we can also be children that way and parents that way.

This (the idea that one person whom does 3 roles) isn't the Trinity at all, but a philosophy called modulism, which is declared hearsay by Trinitarians (because it denies the individuality of the Father, Son, and Spirit).

Each of the Three

Three...roles?

~of them are that, within themselves~ Unlike us though, who no one else is like,~for them The Holy Spirit, the worker in them is identical. So it the Son. So is The Father~

Huh? And huh? And huh?

The hard parts are in understanding how God actually begat a son, when there was no wife, no womb around, and no one to mate with.

Huh? It was my previous understanding that Trinitarians were very against the idea of the Son being begat (feeling somehow that this made Him lesser).

In essence, he has two sons. Both Jesus and The Holy Spirit are the equivalent of two Begotten Sons, but those words are not and have never been used yet, by us, and they Certainly are not in The Bible.

It is unusual to have someone say that the Spirit was begotten as well...

 

[katerinah1947]

I'll break it down--

Wow

This (the idea that one person whom does 3 roles) isn't the Trinity at all, but a philosophy called modulism, which is declared hearsay by Trinitarians (because it denies the individuality of the Father, Son, and Spirit).

But that is not what I said, three roles. It seems to be what you heard. That is not what I said.

Three...roles?

No.

Huh? And huh? And huh?

Huh? It was my previous understanding that Trinitarians were very against the idea of the Son being begat (feeling somehow that this made Him lesser).

Trinitarians insist on the fact that The Son is begat. It is rather what is taken out of the Bible as I understand it. It is something like Only Begotten son, as it is found in The Bible.

It is unusual to have someone say that the Spirit was begotten as well...

Hi,

Are you not a parent, and child and a worker in one body?

LOVE,

 

[Jane_Doe]

Forgive my Katerina, but I am very confused. My biggest points of confusion is whether or not you're talking three person, or one person with three roles?

This quote: "But that is not what I said, three roles. It seems to be what you heard. That is not what I said." says no roles.

But this quote: "Are you not a parent, and child and a worker in one body?" points directly at roles. I am 1 person, serving multiple roles (mom/child/worker, etc).

Hence my confusion.

 

[ScottA]

Hi,

Very good and very close.

Just as these others here, including myself we can be three things, a worker to others and ourselves even, we can also be children that way and parents that way.

Each of the Three ~of them are that, within themselves~ Unlike us though, who no one else is like, ~for them The Holy Spirit, the worker in them is identical. So it the Son. So is The Father~

That part you have well or are understanding perfectly or better.

The hard parts are in understanding how God actually begat a son, when there was no wife, no womb around, and no one to mate with.

Two did not become one and begat. God One, and God two, out of hundreds or thousands of Gods, and one who is female did not meet and fall in love with God one. They did not then join and have a child.

How does a God, when there are no other God's Procreate?

In essence, he has two sons. Both Jesus and The Holy Spirit are the equivalent of two Begotten Sons, but those words are not and have never been used yet, by us, and they Certainly are not in The Bible.

How did God procreate? How did God send The Spirit?

I actually do have an answer to those questions.

LOVE,

Christ the Son of God, is not His son by procreation, but "God with us", as a manifestation of God in the flesh. It is the flesh that is the Lamb of sacrifice...for flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom.

The Holy Spirit, is the alter ego of God the Father, whom makes God omnipresent, going where God the Father will not go, allowing God the Father to remain completely separate from the sin of the world, and holy.

 

[katerinah1947]

Forgive my Katerina, but I am very confused. My biggest points of confusion is whether or not you're talking three person, or one person with three roles?

This quote: "But that is not what I said, three roles. It seems to be what you heard. That is not what I said." says no roles.

But this quote: "Are you not a parent, and child and a worker in one body?" points directly at roles. I am 1 person, serving multiple roles (mom/child/worker, etc).

Hence my confusion.

Hi,

That is why I asked you if you personally understood.

Roles are like three hats to me, and seemed every bit contrary to God in what He is.

If your definition, your personal definition of role, is such that you can say yes to being parent, worker and child in one body fine. I cannot. And if you can, and that is how you see yourself, how you are built then I will use that word with you.

There is no separation in God The Father, when like you and I, He needs or Wants to be what a kid is, a lover, a person who has fun, or someone who plays. Also there is no separation, that roles imply, when He is Holy Spirit like. And, when he is The Father, there is no separation either.

Those are also how we are. Do you see that in you, there is no separation, in you, so that I can know that you understand this?

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

Christ the Son of God, is not His son by procreation, but "God with us", as a manifestation of God in the flesh. It is the flesh that is the Lamb of sacrifice...for flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom.

The Holy Spirit, is the alter ego of God the Father, whom makes God omnipresent, going where God the Father will not go, allowing God the Father to remain completely separate from the sin of the world, and holy.

Hi,

Does your Bible not say, as mine does somewhere that Jesus in not only the Only Begotton Son, but that He exact in all ways to God?

Trinity is hard normally.

LOVE,

 

[com7fy8]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe?

no

If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

For one thing, notice how the Persons are Father and Son and Holy Spirit . . . family names except for "Holy Spirit". But the Holy Spirit has a family function of caring for the children of God.

They are not independent personalities like with mythological gods. All are the exact same Spirit . . . love . . . family caring and sharing love with more than one Person of this love > "God is love" (1 John 4:8&16)

 

[Jane_Doe]

Roles are like three hats to me, and seemed every it contrary to God in what He is.

If your definition, your personal definition of role, is such that you can say yes to being parent, worker and child in one body fine. I cannot. And if you can, and that is how you see yourself, how you are built then I will use that word with you.

There is no separation in God The Father, when like you and I, He needs or Wants to be what a kid is, a lover, a person who has fun, or someone who plays. Also there is no separation, that roles imply, when He is Holy Spirit like. And, when he is The Father, there is no separation either.

Those are also how we are. Do you see that in you, there is no separation, in you, so that I can know that you understand this?

LOVE,

Thanks for working with me katerinah. I appreciate the effort.

A little background on me: I do have multiple roles in life-- I'm a mom, wife, college teacher, and daughter. In each role I do different things, act a different way, wear different clothes, and go by a different name. It's a huge difference! But I'm still just one person. These are what I'm defining as "roles" or "hats" (as used in ScottA's analogy).

Ok, so if you'll bear with my definition of "roles", would you describe God as being 1 person with 3 different roles? (I'm trying to get your perspective here, again thanks for your patience).

Additional useful info: Jane's definition of "person": I am 1 person. I have 1 consciousness, 1 set of thoughts, morals, goals, passions, I take 1 place at the dinner table, etc.

There is no separation in God The Father, when like you and I, He needs or Wants to be what a kid is, a lover, a person who has fun, or someone who plays. Also there is no separation, that roles imply, when He is Holy Spirit like. And, when he is The Father, there is no separation either.

I do want to talk to you about this, but think it'll be best to resolve the first part first.

 

[ScottA]

Does your Bible not say, as mine does somewhere that Jesus in not only the Only Begotton Son, but that He exact in all ways to God?

Here perhaps:

Titus 2:13

 

[Peter1000]

In this verse (John 17:3) Jesus is praying to "you, the only true God". I thought Christians thought that here Jesus was praying to the Father. Instead, he was praying to the combination of the Father, Son, and Spirit? How can he be praying to himself?

Here is the context of John 17:3:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

It just does not make sense to me that he is praying to the combination of the 3 and calling that combination "you".


Well yes, but Acts 7:55 says Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God. You seem to be saying that "God" refers to "God as a whole" so then this would be saying Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as a whole. In other words Jesus was sitting at the right hand of The Father, Son, and Spirit. How can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of himself?

___________________________________________________________________________________

You are asking excellent questions, keep up the good work.

 

[katerinah1947]

Thanks for working with me katerinah. I appreciate the effort.

A little background on me: I do have multiple roles in life-- I'm a mom, wife, college teacher, and daughter. In each role I do different things, act a different way, wear different clothes, and go by a different name. It's a huge difference! But I'm still just one person. These are what I'm defining as "roles" or "hats" (as used in ScottA's analogy).

Ok, so if you'll bear with my definition of "roles", would you describe God as being 1 person with 3 different roles? (I'm trying to get your perspective here, again thanks for your patience).

Additional useful info: Jane's definition of "person": I am 1 person. I have 1 consciousness, 1 set of thoughts, morals, goals, passions, I take 1 place at the dinner table, etc.




I do want to talk to you about this, but think it'll be best to resolve the first part first.

Hi,

Yes, I totally agree to parse this. I am happy to do that always.

In the best fit I have for God, on your first paragraph only, and in there your definition of roles that you gave me, roles is God and God is roles.

On your second paragraph God is Three persons with only one role, as God and being God.

On the additional information paragraph, for God that would be God as God, but at times God as a Person, you have a mix there to me.

LOVE,

 

[ScottA]

Well yes, but Acts 7:55 says Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God. You seem to be saying that "God" refers to "God as a whole" so then this would be saying Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as a whole. In other words Jesus was sitting at the right hand of The Father, Son, and Spirit. How can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of himself?

He can sit at His own right hand (so to speak), by doing for Himself. God multitasking, lol. People do it all the time, why should it be so difficult to understand that God should?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi,

Yes, I totally agree to parse this. I am happy to do that always.

In the best fit I have for God, on your first paragraph only, and in there your definition of roles that you gave me, roles is God and God is roles.

On your second paragraph God is Three persons with only one role, as God and being God.

On the additional information paragraph, for God that would be God as God, but at times God as a Person, you have a mix there to me.

LOVE,

Recapping (to make sure I got this right): going with my definition of "roles", you see God as 1 "person" with three different "roles". Do I go that right?

So then... how does God the Son pray to God the Father? My "Jane the Daughter" doesn't pray to "Jane the Mommy"-- that doesn't make any sense.

 

[katerinah1947]

Here perhaps:

Titus 2:13

Hi,

Close. Until someone understands God as a Trinitarian Entity better, I wish to not comment on the two possible meanings of that passage.

One, not knowing God Trinitarianly and in the Personhood way also, gives that passage one meaning, it is that God and Jesus are always used in the same way everywhere, in the Bible.

I can translate that as Both God and Jesus, but I can also translate that as Jesus who is God. I can also translate that as Jesus is God and there is no other God, if I did not read other passages on the subject.

Yes, Jesus is everyone's God, almost. Yet, God The Father is called by Jesus as His personal God, even though both He and His Father are also God.

So some of the time, Jesus calls God The Father, God as though He Himself were not actually God, also.

LOVE,

I think it was Paul. When I get a chance soon, I will look up that passage to see if I can find it. It is some thing, who else has God said, this day I have begotten you. (In Psalms 2, I think, but also somewhere in the New Testament also.) Yours is close.

LOVE,