Are you sure it isn't three Gods?

[Peter1000]

ViaCrucis says:
The fathers instead spoke of God as three hypostases, God was not an actor putting on different faces, there is in fact an intrinsic three-ness to the Deity.

So the Sabellians got excommunicated for saying there is 1 God that has 3 faces or masks. One mask for the Father, one mask for the Son and one mask for the Holy Ghost.

I have been wanting to ask this question to a good Trinitarian for a while, so ViaCrucis here it is:

When Jesus came to earth and performed his earthly ministry, where was the Father and the Holy Ghost? If they were all 1 God, was the Father with Jesus but suppressed in some way? Was the Holy Ghost with Jesus, but suppressed in some way? Only Jesus face and personality was apparent, the other 2 must have been hidden somehow? How did that work?

Thanks.

 

[Peter1000]

Jehovah is not a legitimate Name for God

Hoveh is the reference to I AM.

Hovah means ruin. Strongs # 1943


Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.
Genesis 19:24


I agree that Jesus Christ the Son of God, has the same name as His Father.


However this verse from Genesis doesn't necessarily mean that the fire came from two different Lords.

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens, is the same as saying...

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, out of the heavens.

By mentioning the Lord twice, their is an emphasis that the fire came from the Lord out of the heavens.



JLB

______________________________________________________________________________

The scriptures seems to make it clear that 1 Lord was on the earth making sure that Lot got to Zoar safely, then the Lord in heaven rained brimstone and fire onto S & G.

It doesn't necessarily mean there were 2 Lords, but I think you see the strong position one could take for there being 2 separate and distinct Lords. 1 on earth directing traffic, the other in heaven raining down brimstone and fire.

To me, mentioning the Lord twice emphasizes there are 2 Lords.

 

[ScottA]

And you were using the same illustration of being known in different circumstances for God. If you and God are both known in different situations differently, and you are not a trinity, then is he also not a trinity?

I understand your point, and it is a great point for discussion. However, it is important that we understand that what defines us as one being, is not in conflict with our many attributes, though they may be considered separately.

Am I one? Yes. Am I also independently known in multiple areas? Yes. Could I be considered as more than one being? No.

The same is true with God.

 

[Peter1000]

I understand your point, and it is a great point for discussion. However, it is important that we understand that what defines us as one being, is not in conflict with our many attributes, though they may be considered separately.

Am I one? Yes. Am I also independently known in multiple areas? Yes. Could I be considered as more than one being? No.

The same is true with God.

__________________________________________________________________________________
You and the different names and roles you perform are one thing, but lets take the following scenario and see how you think about this:

If you begat a son, would that son be incorporated into your body too?

Would you then take on the role that your son would normally do? Sometimes being the Father, sometimes being the son. And quite naturally confusing everyone that knows you?

If you begat or in some fashion, have a second son, would that son also be incorporated into your body? Would you then take on the additional role that your second son would normally do? Sometimes being the Father, sometimes being the first son, sometimes being the second son. And quite naturally confusing everyone that knows you?

 

[ScottA]

__________________________________________________________________________________
You and the different names and roles you perform are one thing, but lets take the following scenario and see how you think about this:

If you begat a son, would that son be incorporated into your body too?

Would you then take on the role that your son would normally do? Sometimes being the Father, sometimes being the son. And quite naturally confusing everyone that knows you?

If you begat or in some fashion, have a second son, would that son also be incorporated into your body? Would you then take on the additional role that your second son would normally do? Sometimes being the Father, sometimes being the first son, sometimes being the second son. And quite naturally confusing everyone that knows you?

If we are to understand God, the answer is, Yes.

Just as we are "in" Christ, and a "child" of God, and One with them both...it is more than conceivable that even we could have, as we have even been told to expect it, that Christ could speak through us, and that we should be used of God.

The misunderstanding, or the confusion, is not due to our being able to relate to our individualness, but rather with our Oneness: It is hard to understand how [even we] can be One with any...and our best example is marriage, where we don't actually appear to be one, but are to believe that we are one flesh. BUT, we would do well not to put asunder what God has joined together.

 

[katerinah1947]

If we are to understand God, the answer is, Yes.

Just as we are "in" Christ, and a "child" of God, and One with them both...it is more than conceivable that even we could have, as we have even been told to expect it, that Christ could speak through us, and that we should be used of God.

The misunderstanding, or the confusion, is not due to our being able to relate to our individualness, but rather with our Oneness: It is hard to understand how [even we] can be One with any...and our best example is marriage, where we don't actually appear to be one, but are to believe that we are one flesh. BUT, we would do well not to put asunder what God has joined together.

Hi,

Everything but your last sentence is correct. The last sentence seemed to be preaching, and too far off your point.

Nicely done.

LOVE,

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis says:
The fathers instead spoke of God as three hypostases, God was not an actor putting on different faces, there is in fact an intrinsic three-ness to the Deity.

So the Sabellians got excommunicated for saying there is 1 God that has 3 faces or masks. One mask for the Father, one mask for the Son and one mask for the Holy Ghost.

I have been wanting to ask this question to a good Trinitarian for a while, so ViaCrucis here it is:

When Jesus came to earth and performed his earthly ministry, where was the Father and the Holy Ghost? If they were all 1 God, was the Father with Jesus but suppressed in some way? Was the Holy Ghost with Jesus, but suppressed in some way? Only Jesus face and personality was apparent, the other 2 must have been hidden somehow? How did that work?

Thanks.

Jesus is the Son, the Logos, incarnate.

The Father wasn't suppressed, He is everywhere as God and perfectly present in and through the incarnate Logos as has always been the case. The same with the Spirit, fully omnipresent, that is everywhere, and also perfectly present in and through the incarnate Logos.

Jesus isn't a face or mask of God, that's specifically what I pointed out to be the error and heresy of Sabellianism. Jesus is the very divine and eternal Logos, the eternal and only-begotten Son of the Father, made flesh, made man.

And so we see throughout Jesus' ministry Jesus praying to, addressing, and pointing to His Father. The Father is distinct from the Son, but not separate. There is actual relationship between Father and Son, one of love.

An essential concept in Trinitarianism is perichoresis. It is always impossible to separate the Three, for the Father is always in the Son, the Son always in the Father, the Spirit in both, etc. Such that when Christ says, "I and my Father are one" and "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" He is speaking truthfully, for Christ being the incarnate Son bears in Himself the very Father from whom He is begotten from all eternity and therefore can be the One who presents and makes known His Father to the world and therefore invite the world to come and know His Father as theirs also by grace.

In the Nicene Creed we say that Christ is "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God", by which we mean He is God (as the Son) from God (the Father); coupled with the confession that He is homoousios, that is, "of the same being" as the Father. He is therefore God from God His Father, for He has His eternal being, nature, essence, and divinity from the Father. This is what we mean when we say He is begotten, and more importantly that He is "begotten before all ages" or in less formal language, "eternally begotten", that is to say, His generation or "birth" is outside of time and happens not at any moment past, as there was never a time when the Son was not, there was never a time that God became Father, He is eternally the Father and there has always been His Son and Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[katerinah1947]

Jesus is the Son, the Logos, incarnate.

The Father wasn't suppressed, He is everywhere as God and perfectly present in and through the incarnate Logos as has always been the case. The same with the Spirit, fully omnipresent, that is everywhere, and also perfectly present in and through the incarnate Logos.

Jesus isn't a face or mask of God, that's specifically what I pointed out to be the error and heresy of Sabellianism. Jesus is the very divine and eternal Logos, the eternal and only-begotten Son of the Father, made flesh, made man.

And so we see throughout Jesus' ministry Jesus praying to, addressing, and pointing to His Father. The Father is distinct from the Son, but not separate. There is actual relationship between Father and Son, one of love.

An essential concept in Trinitarianism is perichoresis. It is always impossible to separate the Three, for the Father is always in the Son, the Son always in the Father, the Spirit in both, etc. Such that when Christ says, "I and my Father are one" and "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" He is speaking truthfully, for Christ being the incarnate Son bears in Himself the very Father from whom He is begotten from all eternity and therefore can be the One who presents and makes known His Father to the world and therefore invite the world to come and know His Father as theirs also by grace.

In the Nicene Creed we say that Christ is "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God", by which we mean He is God (as the Son) from God (the Father); coupled with the confession that He is homoousios, that is, "of the same being" as the Father. He is therefore God from God His Father, for He has His eternal being, nature, essence, and divinity from the Father. This is what we mean when we say He is begotten, and more importantly that He is "begotten before all ages" or in less formal language, "eternally begotten", that is to say, His generation or "birth" is outside of time and happens not at any moment past, as there was never a time when the Son was not, there was never a time that God became Father, He is eternally the Father and there has always been His Son and Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi,

Can you, see if Jesus is God from God, true God from true God, Begotton not made,,,, One in being with the Father...... That the father in this rather now separate entity apart from being God, those parts apart from being God, are Identical in Jesus?

Thus in other words, Apart from the concept and idea, and reality of God being God, whatever that means understanding wise, the father in Jesus, is exactly the same as the father in God The Father, and two more things.

Can you not see the son that is in Jesus is the same as the son in God The Father?

Also, can you not see that The Holy Spirit in God The Father is identical to The Holy Spirit that is in Jesus?

Hence, Begotten is also, Identical in those ways.

In case you can, for The Holy Spirit that also is true, as it is for the Son, in Identicalness, however the Word used for Him is Sent, not begotten.

LOVE,

 

[ewq1938]

What are "the three"? Are they 3 gods?

I already have shown they are not 3 Gods.

Are they three manifestations? Are they 3 persons?

Scripture says the three are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You cannot just refer to God as three _______s and then not fill in the blank.

See above.

 

[Alla27]

Hi,

Biblically The Trinity as I deal with them is here, but also well seen in Psalms 2, not just in Jesus, deciphering that The Holy Spirit, caused David to say those words in Psalms 110:1,

Whose Son Is the Messiah?

35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

until I put your enemies

under your feet.” ’h

37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

LOVE,

Do you see the Trinity from what Jedus said?

LOVE,

I don't see Trinity here.
But I want to understand you. I see your desire that I would understand you. It is also my desire that I would understand you.

Is Trinity according to you three separate persons or one person?

 

[ewq1938]

I don't see Trinity here.
But I want to understand you. I see your desire that I would understand you. It is also my desire that I would understand you.

Is Trinity according to you three separate persons or one person?

Trinity means three so to believe in a Trinity there needs to be 3 of something.

 

[Alla27]

Trinity means three so to believe in a Trinity there needs to be 3 of something.

Ok, what is Trinity? three of what? or who?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, what is Trinity? three of what? or who?

The Father, Son and Holy spirit are the three in the Trinity.

 

[Alla27]

The Father, Son and Holy spirit are the three in the Trinity.

three what?

 

[ewq1938]

three what?

Scripture doesn't provide anything further than Father, Son and holy Spirit. Your question also wrongly assumes all three must be the same yet clearly a Father is different than a Son etc.

 

[com7fy8]

Got it. So God made two clones, and now we have 3 duplicate gods: God, Jesus, and, The Holy Spirit.

That to me is basically the same thing as believing in 3 gods.

"God is love" > in 1 John 4:8&16. There is only one Supreme Being who "is love". But He is in three personal forms > the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit > three Persons of family caring and sharing love.

I consider how love is conscious, so if love is in the form of the Father, love is conscious as the Person of the Father, while the exact same love is conscious as the Person of Jesus. And the Holy Spirit, though not having a family Person name is the One who shares God's very own love with each of us who are God's children >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

"Therefore", I consider, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's very own love; and, because I understand that only God can be the Spirit of His own love, to me this "proves" that the Holy Spirit is God.

Also, you might consider how the planet earth has only one gold. But there can be different forms of that gold, in the forms of statues of people. But even though there are more than one personal form of gold as different statues, this does not mean there are many golds. Like this, there being three Persons of God does not mean there are three different Gods, but love is in the form of more than one Person.

More loosely to explain this > if you have a family, your children then can each have a family. So, there can be more than one family, yet they all are your one family

But . . . because each human in your family is indeed unique with one's own ego and interests, these "might" not be capable of doing any and all things in perfect harmony with each other, since each has the nature to seek one's own.

However > "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8-16). And love is able to be in various personal forms, all at once, and "not only have" but be in perfect harmony among all. And in us children of God, God is sharing with us His nature to be able to love and relate in perfect harmony . . . more and more as we grow in love. In this love, we share with God Himself, like this.

 

[katerinah1947]

three what?

Hi,

Persons.

LOVE,

 

[Alla27]

Hi,

Persons.

LOVE,

I can understand it very well.
Does each person have his/her own name? gender? his/her mission? positions?

 

[katerinah1947]

I don't see Trinity here.
But I want to understand you. I see your desire that I would understand you. It is also my desire that I would understand you.

Is Trinity according to you three separate persons or one person?

Hi,

As I see it, before I saw God, God in His Essence, therefore God. God even then was a person.

He was only one person, once, and at that once time nothing else existed apart from Him, God, who was once only one person.

For whatever reason He begat a Son, and in essence begat another one, but is called Sent rather than begat.

Whether He did Creation before during or after that, I don't know for sure.

So, then there were three persons. However, they were identical in all ways, including Divinity.

The rest follows, and is so, from understanding that we are parent worker and child, internally ourselves, and in that way we are made in the image of God, but that part is off the point.

Each of them being Identical, has the same child as is in The Father, and the same worker as is in The Father, and The Sane Father as is in The Father, thus when they act, in those ways, it is not possible to tell them apart.

However, when The Son that is primarily The Son all of the time acts as The Son, it is obvious it is Him, as in those moments, The Other Two are around, in all of my experiences with Them individually.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

I can understand it very well.
Does each person have his/her own name? gender? his/her mission? positions?

Hi,

Yes. And I also use personal names for them based on my relationship with them/Them and Who they are.

My perso~onal names for them are pet names, in love.~

God The Father has not told me what yet what His/his personal name is, but His Tiltle bane, Father, is aptly suited to Him, as He/he is that in every sense of the word, and He is quite male.

They are all male. Never Have I interfaced with them in any mode, Spiritual Mode seen or even touching or.....etc..... That they were not make, and did not look male, when not appearing as God, but as Persons.

As far as missions go, they have no mission, They/they just Are/are, Who and What They/they are.

As far as positions go, as heretical as this sounds, It is Dad, and His/his two sons.

LOVE,