Are you sure it isn't three Gods?

[doubtingmerle]

God begat His Son, and similarly God begat His Spirit, but He is called Sent.

Now, this part is hard. What did God use apart from Himself? Nothing. He used Himself. In my world Jesus is an exact Duplicate of His Father, but so Is The Holy Spirit.

Got it. So God made two clones, and now we have 3 duplicate gods: God, Jesus, and, The Holy Spirit.

That to me is basically the same thing as believing in 3 gods. You just add the teaching that the first god cloned himself twice, but once that is done, then you have 3 gods who work together in harmony.

The problem with this is that the Old Testament makes it clear there is one god.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Hi,

I am quoting The Bible and I am quoting from an approved Private set of Revelations, that I was involved in.

Private Revelations if approved as valid, by a Spiritual Director, are allowed to share. My Spiritual Director was Father Matt. Also, all other priests agree so far, with his work with me on that issue. The approval came in early, 2008.

Gabriel was in three of them, but always God was first, then Gabiel later, and upon departing, they probably left together, but, I did not really notice, as my primary focus was on God The Father, each time.

A private Revelation from God? If true, that would be fantastic.

And your revelation is valid because it was approved by Father Matt? That's odd. I guess most of the Christians here do not agree with you on that. Are you sure that they are wrong, and that the revelations you receive and have approved by Father Matt are correct?

 

[doubtingmerle]

In Essence All Three Persons of The Trinity, are equal in power and magnitude, and looks, plus God.

Got it: The trinity is 3 persons that work together.

How is that different from believing in 3 gods that work together?

If a polytheist believes in 3 gods, but changes his terminology so he calls his 3 gods "persons" instead of 3 "gods", would you then say you basically agree with him on that point?

 

[AlexDTX]

So in the Old Testament when it refers to God is it referring to God the Father or the whole Godhead? You seem to suggest that it is referring to the whole Godhead.

Doubtingmerle, the concept of God as Father was largely foreign to the Old Testament people. More often God was seen as the Almighty who was unapproachable, and in the prophets He was declared as a husband to Israel. When Jesus referred to God as his father and said that God would be our father, too, it was a radical statement. The understanding of God as a Trinity came in the Early church period of those first 3 to 400 years after the resurrection. Theologians made the distinction of the one member of the Godhead as the Father, not Jesus.
​

OK, and then what does the word God mean in John 3:16?

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

Christians have long taught that this says the Father sent the Son. Do you disagree? You seem to be saying that it says that the Godhead sent one part of the Godhead.

No I do not disagree. God in John 3:16 is the fullness of the Godhead. Theologians called the second member of the Trinity, called the Word in John 1:1, the Son. This recognizes that the Word had become the Son. When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:16, he was referring to himself as a human being as the Son that was sent. No one understands fully how God became a man. Colossians tells us that fullness of godhead dwelt in Jesus bodily. But John says the Word became flesh. Perhaps the Word is the image of the man Jesus. I don't know.

I don't see it quite the way you do, but anyway, is this the concept you have of God: The Father is one part of God, Jesus is another part of God, and the Spirit is another part of God?

Yes and no. Yes, in that God is one person and the each member of the Trinity is a part of the whole, but no, in that each member is a complete person within God. Each person has his own mind, will, and emotions. Nonetheless, each person is the same person of God. I said from outset this is a mystery that has been debated for centuries. I do not make claim that I am right, only that this is how I see it. I appreciate your further inquiry. Thank you for asking.

 

[AlexDTX]

Please, show me where I can see in the Bible that there are two YHWHs.
please, tell me what book and chapter is this verse from?

Isaiah 12:2
2Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD [YHWH] JEHOVAH [YHWH] is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4
4Trust you in the LORD [YHWH] for ever: for in the LORD [YHWH] JEHOVAH [YHWH] is everlasting strength:

Here is another verse, not a double mention of YHWH, but his declaration that there is no other God besides Him.

Isaiah 44:6
6Thus said the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And again, Isaiah 45:5
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me:

 

[JLB777]

He's YHWH, too. Count the two YHWHs in this verse:

The parentheses, added by me, represent commentary from the early church fathers.

What verse?

 

[JLB777]

Theologians made the distinction of the one member of the Godhead as the Father, not Jesus.

They did? Where?

Please post the scripture that says the Godhead is just God the Father.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Isaiah 12:2
2Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD [YHWH] JEHOVAH [YHWH] is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Lord is - 3050 Yah

God - 3068 - YHWH


No such Name as Jehovah, which is a perversion.

 

[Alla27]

,
I am quoting The Bible and I am quoting from an approved Private set of Revelations, that I was involved in.
Private Revelations if approved as valid, by a Spiritual Director, are allowed to share. My Spiritual Director was Father Matt. Also, all other priests agree so far, with his work with me on that issue. The approval came in early, 2008.

Is it approved by Pope? If not, why not?

Gabriel was in three of them, but always God was first, then Gabiel later, and upon departing, they probably left together, but, I did not really notice, as my primary focus was on God The Father, each time.
The Bible does not say all that. It is from personal experiences, with God, over more than two years time. Some of it with Each Of Them.

In this thread I don't discuss personal experiences and revelations of others.

In energy form, in Essence Form, in God Form. In that form they are exactly the same.
It is in Essence, meaning what they are, and in power and magnitude and in God.
In Essence All Three Persons of The Trinity, are equal in power and magnitude, and looks, plus God.
God is felt, rather than seen. They were indistinguishable to me in that form.
I am leaving out one detail. It is the Royal blue stripe, as that has meaning, but I don't know what it means.
LOVE,

Katerinah, I will discuss only those things which were revealed to God's true prophets. What are the names of those prophets whom you quote?

 

[AlexDTX]

They did? Where?
Please post the scripture that says the Godhead is just God the Father.
JLB

I don't believe that the Godhead is just God the Father. I believe Jesus spoke as a man when referring to God (the Godhead) as his Father.

 

[Alla27]

Isaiah 12:2
2Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD [YHWH] JEHOVAH [YHWH] is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 26:4
4Trust you in the LORD [YHWH] for ever: for in the LORD [YHWH] JEHOVAH [YHWH] is everlasting strength:

If there are two YHWHs (2 persons) in these verses then why don't I see words "are", "they" but I see words "he", "is".

 

[Alla27]

Got it: The trinity is 3 persons that work together.

How is that different from believing in 3 gods that work together?

If a polytheist believes in 3 gods, but changes his terminology so he calls his 3 gods "persons" instead of 3 "gods", would you then say you basically agree with him on that point?

great point

 

[AlexDTX]

Lord is - 3050 Yah
God - 3068 - YHWH
No such Name as Jehovah, which is a perversion.

I agree with you. It was the Masoretic Jews of 900 AD who, in wanting to preserve the pronunciation of Hebrew invented the vowel system of today in Hebrew. Since they don't believe that the name of the Tetragrammaton should be pronounced they inserted the vowels of Adonai into it, creating the new name Jehovah (Ya Ho Vai). The letter J in the Teutonic (Germanic) tongues is pronounced as Y and the letter W is pronounced as V. English readers applied their hard sound of J today to the pronunciation just as the Spanish give the J a soft sound of H.

But these are academic considerations. God does not answer to the name of Jehovah or Yahweh. His name is Jesus or any of the Jesus variations around the world.

 

[Alla27]

Doubtingmerle, the concept of God as Father was largely foreign to the Old Testament people. More often God was seen as the Almighty who was unapproachable, and in the prophets He was declared as a husband to Israel. When Jesus referred to God as his father and said that God would be our father, too, it was a radical statement. The understanding of God as a Trinity came in the Early church period of those first 3 to 400 years after the resurrection. Theologians made the distinction of the one member of the Godhead as the Father, not Jesus.​

NOTE: I am not discussing here LDS Doctrine. I am discussing only the Bible and I want to ask Christians on this forum a question.

According to the Bible Heavenly Father is God. Son Jesus Christ said that Heavenly Father is God, His God, His Father
According to the Bible Son Jesus Christ is God. Heavenly Father anointed Him and called Him by name "O God" and "O God, even thy God hath anointed thee"
Summary: So, according to the Bible there is God Heavenly Father and God Son. At least two Gods. And one of them(GOD Son) claims that He has His God and His Father. Another (GOD Heavenly Father) confirms that God Son has His God: "O God, even thy God hath anointed thee.."

But the Bible also has this claim: there is only ONE GOD.
How is it possible that according to the Bible there is only one God but also there are at least two beings who call each other "God" and claim that one God is the God of another?

From reading these claims of the Bible I may come to conclusions:
1)one of these two is not God,
or
2) one God means unity and harmony of more than one God.

Here is THE QUESTION.
Why those conclusions wouldn't be the only logical conclusions?



​

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yes, in that God is one person and the each member of the Trinity is a part of the whole, but no, in that each member is a complete person within God. Each person has his own mind, will, and emotions. Nonetheless, each person is the same person of God.

Sorry, but that sounds like gibberish to me.

In the following verses I see the word "God" can you tell me in each of these verses whether "God" refers to "God as a whole" (the trinity) or to one of the three "complete persons" (Father, Son, or Spirit).

Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Rom 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It would seem to me that in each case "God" means the same thing as "God the Father" and that Jesus is regarded as a unique person, distinct from God.

 

[AlexDTX]

Sorry, but that sounds like gibberish to me.

I can understand why it sounds like gibberish. Nor can I "prove" to you otherwise. I used to wonder how something could become invisible, for example, when watching a movie like the Invisible Man. But to a blind person, everything is invisible. For thousands of years many things in creation were invisible until technology enabled mankind to see them. The fact that we could not see them until that technology came about did not negate the existence of these radioactive particles and other things. I will not presume on what you know or believe, but since you indicate that you are a Humanist, that implies you believe in evolution, which as a theory denies both God and the spirit world. Yet, it is amazing that scientists have calculated the weight of the universe and admit that there is more weight than that which they can account for. So they speculate that there is Dark Matter, or multiple universes through String Theory, but they will not consider that weight as coming from the spirit world. The new birth that Christ gives freely to all who will believe him opens one's spiritual eyes to perceive the spirit world.

In the following verses I see the word "God" can you tell me in each of these verses whether "God" refers to "God as a whole" (the trinity) or to one of the three "complete persons" (Father, Son, or Spirit).

Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I believe it refers to God as a whole in the spirit world. And Jesus Christ as God as a man in the physical world.

Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

God as a man in the physical world.

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Stephen saw the glory of God, and I don't know what that is, but he also saw Jesus as the God-Man.

so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6

It would seem to me that in each case "God" means the same thing as "God the Father" and that Jesus is regarded as a unique person, distinct from God.

The God and the Father I read as meaning God as a whole is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is a distinct person apart from God, yet is the express image of God.

I use this analogy to understand this relationship. Our computers have a hard drive memory and a Random Access Memory. The hard drive memory is the permanent storage of our data. RAM, however is an exact copy of that data until we modify it, such as in a word document, then save it to the hard drive memory. All analogies fall short of their intention, but compare the hard drive to God and Jesus to the RAM. For all practical purposes, Jesus is God as an exact copy, yet he is a created copy in the physical world. [This is where the analogy fails, Jesus was not only an exact copy in the physical world, but also God from the spirit world inside him.] In his case, Jesus was not modified, but remained exactly in the image of God, thus is an extended expression of God Himself. Mankind was made in the same way, but was modified by sin, therefore could not be "saved" back into God since God can not actually change. Jesus, however, since he remained perfect unto his death and resurrection made it possible for anyone to join him in being "saved" (pun intended) back into God. So all who have the new birth are joined back to God, but only through Jesus. Without Jesus we could not be united to God. This is why he is our Savior.

 

[katerinah1947]

Got it: The trinity is 3 persons that work together.

How is that different from believing in 3 gods that work together?

If a polytheist believes in 3 gods, but changes his terminology so he calls his 3 gods "persons" instead of 3 "gods", would you then say you basically agree with him on that point?

Hi,(some edits are being made now) (Wow. Done now.)

On the issue of 3 Gods that work together.,

From my point of view, which is Who and What I worked with, and work with now, the idea of cloning combined with Cell Division is apt, so far.

God, to me, is more like the job, but it also a feature.

That feature, which for you or I would be like being born as a MicroBiologist, is there, and a little more. When they are on the job, they are also like many of us, indistinguishable, in personality, while doing the job.

I think you mentioned that. The cloning/cell division analogy, without using those words, is how I handle Them on the job.

Off the job, when They are just Persons, they are just persons, who also happen to be God, individually and or together.

How they do the "job" that I do not know.

Initially, the first day that I was to see God, in The Essence Form of God, and Oh Yes, just like the Christians have been talking about, Trinitarianly, God, All Three Of Them together, start to appear before me.

As the presence of them, in a full room of people but off the point, gets more and more, soon They are all that I see.

I was not allowed to touch, then. The experience of ~them for you, was in not sensing personalities but sensing God, and having to use my logical faculties, to figure out who was who. Yet, the next month, I am soon dealing with them as one on one, and I can feel their personalities, and I knew then somehow, their own individual personal voices.~

Three separate Gods is not accurate. Three persons~who are actually God, but one God, and felt with and interfaced with that way, as I actually fell in love with God as an entity, then somehow, felt joy, saw joy, is still a little confusing to me, To figure out, and I normally don't think about that. And, what I felt, in content, I am not sure of yet, but it is as though when the Three are One in that way, there....is a unity so complete, that the individuals become as one person, but still I can sense all of them individually, when I allow myself to feel and think on that, in content, so even though each of them has the same Trinitarian makeup as we all do, being a parent type and a child type and a working type who all share our one body, I feel, with content, and am looking now at that, it is as, when they become God, They actually become one person again, and which they can be felt separately with great difficulty or all together so easily,that it hard to see any individuality, intertrinitarianly, and extatrinitarianly. Not being God myself, I may not know how yet, but that is what it is like. As individuals they are one thing. As God they are another, and always they are both, but maybe never both at the same time. And, knowing Them, as I do, it would not surprise me, if they do both simultaneously, and always.~

The above to me seems sketchy. I don't normally talk this way. The ~~ marks, are so I can speak without wondering how anyone else is interpreting those words, and it is when I talk about that part of my existence, thus my knowledge and life so far, with God, collectively, individually, and personally.

LOVE,

 

[Alla27]

Hi,(some edits are being made now) (Wow. Done now.)

On the issue of 3 Gods that work together.,

From my point of view, which is Who and What I worked with, and work with now, the idea of cloning combined with Cell Division is apt, so far.

God, to me, is more like the job, but it also a feature.

That feature, which for you or I would be like being born as a MicroBiologist, is there, and a little more. When they are on the job, they are also like many of us, indistinguishable, in personality, while doing the job.

I think you mentioned that. The cloning/cell division analogy, without using those words, is how I handle Them on the job.

Off the job, when They are just Persons, they are just persons, who also happen to be God, individually and or together.

How they do the "job" that I do not know.

Initially, the first day that I was to see God, in The Essence Form of God, and Oh Yes, just like the Christians have been talking about, Trinitarianly, God, All Three Of Them together, start to appear before me.

As the presence of them, in a full room of people but off the point, gets more and more, soon They are all that I see.

I was not allowed to touch, then. The experience of ~them for you, was in not sensing personalities but sensing God, and having to use my logical faculties, to figure out who was who. Yet, the next month, I am soon dealing with them as one on one, and I can feel their personalities, and I knew then somehow, their own individual personal voices.~

Three separate Gods is not accurate. Three persons~who are actually God, but one God, and felt with and interfaced with that way, as I actually fell in love with God as an entity, then somehow, felt joy, saw joy, is still a little confusing to me, To figure out, and I normally don't think about that. And, what I felt, in content, I am not sure of yet, but it is as though when the Three are One in that way, there....is a unity so complete, that the individuals become as one person, but still I can sense all of them individually, when I allow myself to feel and think on that, in content, so even though each of them has the same Trinitarian makeup as we all do, being a parent type and a child type and a working type who all share our one body, I feel, with content, and am looking now at that, it is as, when they become God, They actually become one person again, and which they can be felt separately with great difficulty or all together so easily,that it hard to see any individuality, intertrinitarianly, and extatrinitarianly. Not being God myself, I may not know how yet, but that is what it is like. As individuals they are one thing. As God they are another, and always they are both, but maybe never both at the same time. And, knowing Them, as I do, it would not surprise me, if they do both simultaneously, and always.~

The above to me seems sketchy. I don't normally talk this way. The ~~ marks, are so I can speak without wondering how anyone else is interpreting those words, and it is when I talk about that part of my existence, thus my knowledge and life so far, with God, collectively, individually, and personally.

LOVE,

Hmm, I can not comprehend what you have said, katerinah. Can you explain Trinity the way that even a child could understand?

 

[Alla27]

The God and the Father I read as meaning God as a whole

I will stop you right here. What does it mean? And where can I find expression "God as a whole" in the Bible? I want to see BIBLICAL PROPHETS of God speak the same language you speak.

Jesus is a distinct person apart from God, yet is the express image of God.
.

The only logical conclusion I can make from this claim is that Jesus Christ is not God.
Do you understand that this is what you are suggesting?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe? If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

Three Gods would involve three separate entities. That's the most obvious difference between tritheism and Trinitarianism.

"Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords." - The Athanasian Creed

-CryptoLutheran