Are you sure it isn't three Gods?

[AlexDTX]

If there are two YHWHs (2 persons) in these verses then why don't I see words "are", "they" but I see words "he", "is".

Because you are reading an English translation, so the translators chose the singular pronoun because He is one person in three.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Three Gods would involve three separate entities.

So God is three persons but not three separate entities? What can that possibly mean? Aren't we splitting hairs here?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I believe it refers to God as a whole in the spirit world. And Jesus Christ as God as a man in the physical world.

In this verse (John 17:3) Jesus is praying to "you, the only true God". I thought Christians thought that here Jesus was praying to the Father. Instead, he was praying to the combination of the Father, Son, and Spirit? How can he be praying to himself?

Here is the context of John 17:3:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

It just does not make sense to me that he is praying to the combination of the 3 and calling that combination "you".

Stephen saw the glory of God, and I don't know what that is, but he also saw Jesus as the God-Man.

Well yes, but Acts 7:55 says Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God. You seem to be saying that "God" refers to "God as a whole" so then this would be saying Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as a whole. In other words Jesus was sitting at the right hand of The Father, Son, and Spirit. How can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of himself?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So God is three persons but not three separate entities? What can that possibly mean? Aren't we splitting hairs here?

The early fathers tended to prefer saying three Hypostases, translated into English as subsistences. The word "person" comes from the Latin persona (plural personae) a translation of the Greek prosopon (plural prosopa). Historically both prosopa and persona have been somewhat troublesome (as is the English "person"). The heretical Sabellians argued that God was a single hypostasis with three prosopa (personae), the concept of the prosopon was that of the theater masks worn during Greek plays--this is the reason Sabellius and others were regarded as heretics, they were saying, in effect, God merely put on different masks or "faces". The term prosopa has been used to describe the three hypostases, but it is defined in explicitly non-Sabellian terms by asserting God is three hypostases, not one hypostasis.

The fathers instead spoke of God as three hypostases, God was not an actor putting on different faces, there is in fact an intrinsic three-ness to the Deity.

Further, God is called one ousia, or substance/being/essence.

This is to say the Son is not a separate being or entity from the Father, but the Son is a distinct (not separate) hypostasis than the Father.

In English the word "person" has its own set of assumptions, I'm a person, and you're an entirely separate person, we are two different creatures, two different beings, entities, things. This isn't the case with the Trinity.

The only way to really wrap one's head around Trinitarian theology is to familiarize oneself with the language and how it has been used historically. Analogies never work, inevitably when Christian try to explain the Trinity using analogies it results in rather explicit heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AlexDTX]

In this verse (John 17:3) Jesus is praying to "you, the only true God". I thought Christians thought that here Jesus was praying to the Father. Instead, he was praying to the combination of the Father, Son, and Spirit? How can he be praying to himself?

Here is the context of John 17:3:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

It just does not make sense to me that he is praying to the combination of the 3 and calling that combination "you".


Well yes, but Acts 7:55 says Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God. You seem to be saying that "God" refers to "God as a whole" so then this would be saying Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as a whole. In other words Jesus was sitting at the right hand of The Father, Son, and Spirit. How can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of himself?

I don't think I can go any farther in this dialogue. I freely confessed that I do not know for certain and that this has been a subject of debate for thousands of years. You seem stuck on the theological distinction of the Father as being one member of the Godhead, and I declared that I don't use the term in that narrow definition.

Also, I had already declared that I believe that God sees himself as one person just as we see ourselves as one person, even though we are 3 persons in one: body, soul and spirit. My view on the body soul and spirit are not based upon theological opinion, but personal experience and a logical conclusion that if God is 3 persons in one, and we are made in his image, then we are 3 persons in one, too.

Frankly, this discussion belongs in a strictly believer's thread. It is a pointless discussion with those who do not have the new birth. Your need for the new birth is a more important discussion.

 

[AlexDTX]

That’s funny, I read it in Hebrew and it is still singular.

Thank you. I believe God is one person, too. But that one person has 3 persons within himself.

 

[Alla27]

"Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated.

This not the Word of God. This is 100% unbiblical statement.
Whom did God Father say: I am uncreated. My Son is uncreated, the Holy Ghost is uncreated?

The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited.

what does it even mean? is this Word of God? Whom did God say this?

The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal.

Do you understand that it doesn't make any sense?

As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

Do you understand that this doesn't make any sense?

Does it make sense that Adam and Eve are ONE FLESH? No, it doesn't make any sense UNLESS we know that ONE FLESH is symbolically, not literally.
What is ONE GOD? Is it literally or symbolically? Three Gods are ONE GOD in purpose, as Adam and Eve are ONE FLESH in love, in faith, in goals, in deeds.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords.

" - The Athanasian Creed

Who is "we"? God? I want to see these words: Thus says the Lord : "I forbid to say ......"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Who is "we"? God? I want to see these words: Thus says the Lord : "I forbid to say ......"

It's not the Bible, it's a confession of faith known as the Athanasian Creed. The "we" means we Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[katerinah1947]

Hmm, I can not comprehend what you have said, katerinah. Can you explain Trinity the way that even a child could understand?

Hi,

Yes, but I would like to know what the child can handle.

If I said that you are a kid sometimes in the way you act, but your body has not changed, can the kid I am supposed to explain this to, understand that.?

Can the kid, understand that within his own body, he can act like a child, he can act just like a parent, a mommy or a daddy, in that same body, without going outside of his own body?

If the child can understand that, can the child also understand that when he is working, he is working. He is neither a parent, nor a child, but a worker, and when he is a worker, still he is in the same body as he always was?

If he can understand that, we can go from there.

LOVE,

 

[ChetSinger]

Please, show me where I can see in the Bible that there are two YHWHs.
please, tell me what book and chapter is this verse from?

It's Genesis 19:24.

 

[ChetSinger]

What verse?

It's Genesis 19:24.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The early fathers tended to prefer saying three Hypostases, translated into English as subsistences. The word "person" comes from the Latin persona (plural personae) a translation of the Greek prosopon (plural prosopa). Historically both prosopa and persona have been somewhat troublesome (as is the English "person"). The heretical Sabellians argued that God was a single hypostasis with three prosopa (personae), the concept of the prosopon was that of the theater masks worn during Greek plays--this is the reason Sabellius and others were regarded as heretics, they were saying, in effect, God merely put on different masks or "faces". The term prosopa has been used to describe the three hypostases, but it is defined in explicitly non-Sabellian terms by asserting God is three hypostases, not one hypostasis.

The fathers instead spoke of God as three hypostases, God was not an actor putting on different faces, there is in fact an intrinsic three-ness to the Deity.

Further, God is called one ousia, or substance/being/essence.

This is to say the Son is not a separate being or entity from the Father, but the Son is a distinct (not separate) hypostasis than the Father.

In English the word "person" has its own set of assumptions, I'm a person, and you're an entirely separate person, we are two different creatures, two different beings, entities, things. This isn't the case with the Trinity.

The only way to really wrap one's head around Trinitarian theology is to familiarize oneself with the language and how it has been used historically. Analogies never work, inevitably when Christian try to explain the Trinity using analogies it results in rather explicit heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah, there are three hypostases and one ousia. That clears it up

If a polytheist says there are 3 gods and one ousia, is he basically in line with Christian doctrine on this? If not, what is the difference between a god an a hypostasis?

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

God the Father is God over the E/c2. He can disassociate it into plasma or re-associate it into mass to his liking.

Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. - Numbers 10:2

The two trumpets are representative of the Spirit and the Word. In that they come out of the same piece they also are one with the Heavenly Father. They are unique one from another, but out of the same piece, thus one God...

 

[JLB777]

It's Genesis 19:24.

Jehovah is not a legitimate Name for God

Hoveh is the reference to I AM.

Hovah means ruin. Strongs # 1943


Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.
Genesis 19:24


I agree that Jesus Christ the Son of God, has the same name as His Father.


However this verse from Genesis doesn't necessarily mean that the fire came from two different Lords.

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens, is the same as saying...

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, out of the heavens.

By mentioning the Lord twice, their is an emphasis that the fire came from the Lord out of the heavens.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

His name is Jesus or any of the Jesus variations around the world.

 

[ChetSinger]

Jehovah is not a legitimate Name for God

Hoveh is the reference to I AM.

Hovah means ruin. Strongs # 1943

Jehovah is an Anglicized version of YHWH, as Jesus is an Anglicized version of Yeshua. I don't use it myself, but I don't have a problem with it.

Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.
Genesis 19:24

I agree that Jesus Christ the Son of God, has the same name as His Father.

However this verse from Genesis doesn't necessarily mean that the fire came from two different Lords.

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens, is the same as saying...

the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, out of the heavens.

By mentioning the Lord twice, their is an emphasis that the fire came from the Lord out of the heavens.JLB

The interpretation I referenced was taught by the early church fathers I mentioned in a previous post.

I think I may know why. In the previous chapter YHWH and two angels visited Abraham. YHWH was in the form of a man, and Abraham served him a meal. YHWH remained with Abraham while the two angels continued on to Sodom. So that verse seems to be saying that YHWH on earth (the pre-incarnate Word) remained there on earth while YHWH in heaven (the Father) sent down the destruction. This is how it was interpreted by ECFs and it makes sense to me.

 

[AlexDTX]

Jehovah is an Anglicized version of YHWH, as Jesus is an Anglicized version of Yeshua. I don't use it myself, but I don't have a problem with it.

It is Anglicized because of the precedent of the Masoretic Jews. I only take issue with the use of Jehovah with Jehovah Witnesses who think that is the name of God and deny the deity of Jesus.

 

[AlexDTX]

NOTE: I am not discussing here LDS Doctrine. I am discussing only the Bible and I want to ask Christians on this forum a question.​

Your questions are rooted in LDS doctrine, so that is a consideration in answering your questions. However, I am done with this discussion. It is a fruitless discussion of light to the blind.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ah, there are three hypostases and one ousia. That clears it up

If a polytheist says there are 3 gods and one ousia, is he basically in line with Christian doctrine on this?

Well no, because the Christian teaching is that there is only one God. So saying there are three gods would mean there's more than one god, which would not be in line with Christian doctrine.

If not, what is the difference between a god an a hypostasis?

god (gŏd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

hy·pos·ta·sis (hī-pŏs′tə-sĭs)
n. pl. hy·pos·ta·ses (-sēz′)
1. Philosophy The substance, essence, or underlying reality.
2. Christianity
a. Any of the persons of the Trinity.
b. The essential person of Jesus in which his human and divine natures are united.
3. Something that has been hypostatized.
4.
a. A settling of solid particles in a fluid.
b. Something that settles to the bottom of a fluid; sediment.
5. Medicine The settling of blood in the lower part of an organ or the body as a result of decreased blood flow.
6. Genetics A condition in which the action of one gene is concealed or suppressed by the action of an allele of a different gene that affects the same part or biochemical process in an organism.

In Christian theology God in His unitary, indivisible being is His one ousia. The three--the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit--are spoken of as three distinct (but inseparate) hypostases. The Father isn't imagined, but real; the Son isn't imagined, but real, etc. So there isn't an imaginary threeness, but a real threeness in the one, indivisible reality of God's own Self.

-CryptoLutheran