Calvinism, explained.

[GillDouglas]

All things that exist, yes. Hence my assertion that God cannot have knowledge of no-thing, that which doesn't exist.

So the question still remains, how can God have exhaustive foreknowledge of that which doesn't exist? Such an assertion is patently absurd. It is akin to suggesting that God could cease to exist. The very formulation of the statement reveals broken logic and flimsy philosophical execution.

What year were you born? Did you exist before that year? Did God know of you before 'the foundation of the earth'?

 

[GillDouglas]

So you're an annihilationist?

If you mean to say that I believe all men will perish, no I am not an annihilationist. Some will have life eternally with the Father, some will not.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

If you mean to say that I believe all men will perish, no I am not an annihilationist. Some will have life eternally with the Father, some will not.

Will the ones without life exist beyond the cessation of space/time? If so, how is this possible apart from resurrection?

 

[alexandriaisburning]

What year were you born? Did you exist before that year? Did God know of you before 'the foundation of the earth'?

Yes, in a way I did exist, as the constituent parts that comprise my being existed generally as a part of that which exists in creation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "foundation of the world". You are certainly reading specific presuppositions into that phrase, so you'll have to explicate what those are before I can answer.

 

[sdowney717]

Um, resurrection, for starters!

Ok, but that resurrection is to condemnation in the lake of fire the second death. So does not benefit them, such persons would rather never been born. So how does that benefit them? Typically Christians consider they are resurrected to life, but there exist a resurrection to the second death in the Lake of Fire at the end for the wicked.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When Jesus says He is the resurrection and the life, at the end on Judgement of the Last Day, all will come before Him, because well, He is the resurrection and the life.

All of the dead will be resurrected, meaning they will come up out of their graves or however they died, they will be reformed or reconstituted into a body of some sort.

And those who are spiritually dead, with their dead souls-spirits joined to a resurrected body will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Prior to this, the wicked dead are cast into hell without a resurrection.

Revelations 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

But this I confess unto you, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets; having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust (Acts 24:14-15)

 

[GillDouglas]

Will the ones without life exist beyond the cessation of space/time? If so, how is this possible apart from resurrection?

There is no physical rebirth if this is the way you're attempting to describe it. Men are already spiritually dead from birth, the spiritual rebirth begins at the point God begins the work on a man's heart.

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, in a way I did exist, as the constituent parts that comprise my being existed generally as a part of that which exists in creation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "foundation of the world". You are certainly reading specific presuppositions into that phrase, so you'll have to explicate what those are before I can answer.

Before God created all things He knew you and I. Is that not plain enough to you?

 

[sdowney717]

The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.
And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

v17 implies our names were written in the Book of Life or not written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, First names are written or not written, then the world created.

Revelations 17 here agrees with Ephesians 1, with our names meaning our identity chosen in Him before God created I suppose any other thing.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

This Ephesians passage is referring to genuine real persons, not the church.
So before this in Gen 1, our names were written in Heaven, what better evidence exists that salvation can not be lost, if our names were written in the Book of Life before all things were made?

Genesis 1New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

So prior to this here in Genesis 1, we have proof God did something.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Ok, but that resurrection is to condemnation in the lake of fire the second death. So does not benefit them, such persons would rather never been born. So how does that benefit them? Typically Christians consider they are resurrected to life, but there exist a resurrection to the second death in the Lake of Fire at the end for the wicked.

I would argue (and I think logic concurs) that the perpetuation of existence is more beneficial than annihilation. All of creation shall partake of Christ's resurrection, for that which God has assumed in Christ is thereby reconciled.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Before God created all things He knew you and I. Is that not plain enough to you?

There is no "before" the creation! The only framework in which the concept of "before" has any meaningful import is within the assumption of the existence of space/time. While the concept of "before" *might* be loosely used to describe logical priority, it cannot be applicable in this case as that which is assumed to come "before" (God's knowledge) has no referent (that of which knowledge is had, e.g., "creation"). You are in essence saying that God has knowledge of nothingness, which is patently absurd, for "no-thing" is not a "thing" of which knowledge can be had... it is merely a placeholder in language to refer tangentially to a non-existence, which technically cannot be named.

I'm not sure why you keep using this phrase when you have to acknowledge the inaccuracy of it. So no, it is not plain because you continue to use imprecise (and inaccurate language).

 

[ToBeLoved]

Calvinist's will affirm that Christ died to save His people from their sins.
Scripture says God gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life.
That is true. In reality, Christ dies so that believers in Him will not perish in hell. So he dies for believers, not for unbelievers.
His death does not help unbelievers at all. His death accomplishes salvation only for believers.
All unbelievers will die in their sins, if they do not believe in Christ.

Can anyone think of a benefit to unbelievers of Christ's death for them?

1 John 2:2 King James Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know that Jesus died for all.

Next.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All things that exist, yes. Hence my assertion that God cannot have knowledge of no-thing, that which doesn't exist.

So the question still remains, how can God have exhaustive foreknowledge of that which doesn't exist? Such an assertion is patently absurd. It is akin to suggesting that God could cease to exist. The very formulation of the statement reveals broken logic and flimsy philosophical execution.

If it does not exist, then why would anyone care. Why would God write things in His Word about things that do not exist if HE is the CREATOR OF ALL?

Your statement makes NO SENSE.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All things that exist, yes. Hence my assertion that God cannot have knowledge of no-thing, that which doesn't exist.

So the question still remains, how can God have exhaustive foreknowledge of that which doesn't exist? Such an assertion is patently absurd. It is akin to suggesting that God could cease to exist. The very formulation of the statement reveals broken logic and flimsy philosophical execution.

Who would have created something that does not exist besides God?

If the answer is no one, than you got your answer.

 

[sdowney717]

I would argue (and I think logic concurs) that the perpetuation of existence is more beneficial than annihilation. All of creation shall partake of Christ's resurrection, for that which God has assumed in Christ is thereby reconciled.

So you believe in no hell or no eternal torment in hell?

Those who will be cast into hell, Christ says exists a body.
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Reading these implies a body and soul gets cast into the final fire of hell, not just a soul or spirit.

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 2:2 King James Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know that Jesus died for all.

Next.

You must admit even your interpretation does not benefit unbelievers, which is what I had asked earlier.
Christ dying for believers accomplishes their eternal salvation. What does it do for unbelievers?

 

[EmSw]

You must admit even your interpretation does not benefit unbelievers, which is what I had asked earlier.
Christ dying for believers accomplishes their eternal salvation. What does it do for unbelievers?

Were you ever an unbeliever? What did His death do for you when you were an unbeliever? According to your theory, His death did nothing for anyone, since all were at one time or another unbelievers.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

If it does not exist, then why would anyone care. Why would God write things in His Word about things that do not exist if HE is the CREATOR OF ALL?

Your statement makes NO SENSE.

I'm not arguing that creation doesn't exist. I'm trying to make a precise point about the relationship of divine knowledge and logical boundaries of that to which it can extend. My assertion is merely that God cannot know nothing, and as a result, cannot have eternally "exhaustive foreknowledge" of that which does not exist when the referent of the knowledge is not consubstantial in eternality with God.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Who would have created something that does not exist besides God?

If the answer is no one, than you got your answer.

That God creates ex nihilo says nothing about God's (fore)knowledge of that which God creates, which is the subject of the discussion. Logically prior to the creation of the universe, there is no-thing ontologically substantial about which God can have knowledge. If God *does* have knowledge of the universe apart from its actual existence, then the creation is not ex nihilo, for we must posit that the universe exists eternally with/in God whereby it might be an appropriate object of eternal, divine knowlege.

 

[Job8]

...but I believe I have a strong grasp in regard to Soteriology.

Then you should have a very strong grasp of this (John 1:29,35,36): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world... Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

That one verse (29) totally demolishes Calvinism. Who is the Lamb of God? Whose sins were taken away? How many sins were taken away? Why is "sin" singular? How does this verse corroborate other similar verses?

 

[nobdysfool]

Then you should have a very strong grasp of this (John 1:29,35,36): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world... Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

That one verse (29) totally demolishes Calvinism. Who is the Lamb of God? Whose sins were taken away? How many sins were taken away? Why is "sin" singular? How does this verse corroborate other similar verses?

No, it doesn't. but I don't expect you to understand, because you don't understand calvinism rightly. You don't know that you don't know, which is where most people are when it comes to soteriology. If you truly understood Calvinism you wouldn't make such statements, which only serve to inflame. Anytime I hear someone talking about this verse or that verse (singular) "totally demolishing Calvinism", I know I'm dealing with someone who doesn't even know that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If it were that easy, it would have been done centuries ago. the fact that anyone still feels the need to fight against it, proves that it is a threat to a soteriological view that has its own serious holes in it, that they don't want to be told about or have to face. So they attack. Maybe someday they'll realize that if they stop throwing themselves against the ramparts, it will stop being so painful. Some just have to learn the hard way...

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