God's foreknowledge and free will

[Albion]

How is it then that God knows the future without determining the future?

The first doesn't necessitate the second of those, that's all. It is entirely possible to know what will happen without making it happen.

If God has not determined the future how is it that it doesn't necessarily follow that He must learn and react to what He sees?

Because if he truly knows the future, he isn't going to be surprised by what happens, and that means that he isn't going to have to alter or adjust his plans in response to it.

I certainly knew the end from the beginning. I had a purpose in view that we were going to erect a building of a certain size and height with each side having a certain look and every detail of the interior. I knew how each stage of the construction was to be carried on and even how many days it should take to erect it. What I didn't know was when a certain person would not show up when they were supposed to or when the rain would hold us up. I saw the future partially but had I known every detail of the future I would have then planned for it which means that I learned from my foresight and made changes in my plan because of it.

Well, why assume that God has not planned for the future? Let's use a different analogy. You knew that subcontractors would run late in the course of your building project, so you took that into account when starting to lay out your timetable. Does this mean that you CAUSED the subcontractors to get drunk on Independence Day or take sick at some time, and so fall behind schedule? I don't see how that can be argued.

 

[lesliedellow]

The first doesn't necessitate the second of those, that's all. It is entirely possible to know what will happen without making it happen.

Not if you are the omnipotent creator of the universe it isn't. If you are the omnipotent creator of the universe, and you could foresee its entire history, then you are responsible for that entire history.

Trying to compare that with what happens within history, and with finite beings, is entirely fallacious.

 

[timewerx]

God knows that in 50 years on a given Sunday you will go out and mow the grass. When that Sunday in 50 years comes along, you decide to watch football instead of mowing the grass.

Let's try something different.

What if you can see the future, what if you can see tomorrow.

Tomorrow, you saw yourself, cleaning up your already clean car....

So thought to yourself, I won't clean the car tomorrow (to break the prophecy)

The next day comes, you plan to lay all day doing nothing to break the prophecy. Then the wife sees you doing nothing asks you to come along to visit her sister that you hate.

So you get up and pretend to be busy cleaning your already cleaned car......Your very effort to avoid the prophecy fulfilled it....

Do you think you have free-will in this case??

Ironically, this is not a made up scenario.. ..something along the lines did happened to me a few times. Made me felt so powerless as if things are inevitable.

 

[Hank77]

Not if you are the omnipotent creator of the universe it isn't. If you are the omnipotent creator of the universe, and you could foresee its entire history, then you are responsible for that entire history.

I couldn't have said it better myself. "then you are responsible for that entire history."
That is exactly what Calvinism, when carried through to it's logical conclusion, says. "God is responsible for all the evil and sin that men do."
Then God punishes man for committing sins that he had no choice but to do.

The next day comes, you plan to lay all day doing nothing to break the prophecy. Then the wife sees you doing nothing asks you to come along to visit her sister that you hate.

How was the wife forcing her husband to go to the sister's instead of laying around? Wasn't that a choice?

 

[Albion]

I couldn't have said it better myself. "then you are responsible for that entire history."

"Responsible for" isn't the same as "made it happen," though, Hank.

These subtle shifts in the wording of the claims that have been made need to be noticed.

That is exactly what Calvinism, when carried through to it's logical conclusion, says. "God is responsible for all the evil and sin that men do."

No, that most assuredly is not what "Calvinism" says about it. Whether or not one agrees with the proposition, it's not what they say.

Then God punishes man for committing sins that he had no choice but to do.

Again, that's not a correct rendering of the predestinarian POV. All that is predetermined is salvation, not the course of everyday events.

 

[Belk]

"Responsible for" isn't the same as "made it happen," though, Hank.

These subtle shifts in the wording of the claims that have been made need to be noticed.


No, that most assuredly is not what "Calvinism" says about it. Whether or not one agrees with the proposition, it's not what they say.


Again, that's not a correct rendering of the predestinarian POV. All that is predetermined is salvation, not the course of everyday events.

So how did God, with his perfect foreknowledge and omnipotence, create a universe without determining each event that is going to occur? If each and every possible outcome is known to me and under my control I must make a concise choice to create a universe where those events come to pass.

 

[Albion]

So how did God, with his perfect foreknowledge and omnipotence, create a universe without determining each event that is going to occur?

Why not?

If each and every possible outcome is known to me and under my control I must make a concise choice to create a universe where those events come to pass.

"where those events come to pass" is the key there. That's not what your side has been contending throughout the thread.

 

[timewerx]

How was the wife forcing her husband to go to the sister's instead of laying around? Wasn't that a choice?

No one is forcing anyone. Just some men I know would find every pathetic excuse than be honest. One thing leads to another and before you know it, it's a full blown emergency!

 

[timewerx]

If each and every possible outcome is known to me and under my control I must make a concise choice to create a universe where those events come to pass.

Believe me, it will happen even if you lay down and do nothing.

Oh, you can do something if you've seen the future. But often that action will lead right to it.

Makes you wonder if prophesy is a gift or a curse.

 

[Belk]

Why not?

Why not what? I am asking for an explanation because I am not understanding your point of view.

"where those events come to pass" is the key there. That's not what your side has been contending throughout the thread.

I'm detailing the part I am not understanding and asking for clarification. I don't see how God could create a universe in which he has not already per-determined each and every outcome and specifically choose those outcomes. Can you help me understand how you see it as possible?

 

[ecco]

True, but this doesn't seem to be what you were saying with "a higher level of morals."

How a person instills levels of morality into a child is by teaching and example. For God it's more direct - it's done at the point of creation of Adam & Eve - fully formed.

Who instilled a sense of morality into Adam & Eve? God did. God is omnipotent. God was very precise in the level of morality he instilled into them. God ForeKnew what the result would be. And then He blamed them and cursed all of mankind.

OK.


Of course I accept it. What I don't accept is the apparent conclusion that God pre-programmed Adam and Eve to fall.

You admit God knew A&E were going to fail before He created them.

Call it what you will. How a person instills levels of morality into a child is by teaching and example. For God it's more direct - it's done at the point of creation of Adam & Eve - fully formed.

 

[Albion]

Why not what? I am asking for an explanation because I am not understanding your point of view.

My point of view is that knowing the future does not require the one knowing future events to make them happen. There simply isn't that correlation, although people seem to assume that because it's God we're talking about, there has to be one.

I'm detailing the part I am not understanding and asking for clarification. I don't see how God could create a universe in which he has not already per-determined each and every outcome and specifically choose those outcomes.

Why would he have to do that? It's not that he's capable of it, but why would he have to "script" every last thing that is to happen?

 

[Albion]

How a person instills levels of morality into a child is by teaching and example.

Because it's been referred to so often, maybe we need a careful definition or explanation as to what "levels of morality" means. What levels are there, for instance?

You admit God knew A&E were going to fail before He created them.

Yes, I think that's right. The issue is whether or not he programmed them to fall.

 

[ecco]

It's all very interesting, but your estimate of what's moral, what's not moral, or about supposed "levels" of morality is just a personal opinion. And it's now evident that you are talking, with your "options," about the morality or lack of it on the part of GOD, not Adam and Eve. If, as most Christians do, we try to see the matter through the guidance of the Bible, it's quite a different matter.

If you are responding to my comments, please quote a bit of it so I know your response is directed to me.


Personal Opinion? Hardly. A person can set bad examples for his children and teach them to to care for no one and nothing or he can set good examples and teach them right from wrong. These actions instill various levels of morality into the child.

God did it more directly - He created A&E fully formed, fully functioning, able to speak the language he instilled into their minds, able to judge right from wrong based on the morality He instilled into them.

I do not question God's morality insofar as how He created A&E. I do question His morality in blaming them and all mankind thereafter for their actions - since He knew before He created them that they would disobey Him.

What biblical guidance is there that shows it's a different matter? Most Christians believe that God is omniscient but never think the matter through when it comes to A&E and the ultimate responsibility for mankind's "sin".

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

"Responsible for" isn't the same as "made it happen," though, Hank.

These subtle shifts in the wording of the claims that have been made need to be noticed.

Hmmm... if a company sells a product that is unreliable as a result of certain design choices, and which could fail in normal use, with potentially tragic results, they're usually called 'irresponsible'; and if such a tragedy does occur, the defence that, while they may be responsible for making the product, they didn't make it fail, is called 'weasel words', and not received well.

An omniscient God knows His creation will fail with tragic results - He deliberately designed it with free will. What's more, He knows exactly when, and where, and how often it will fail; He knows the awful tragedies that will result.

A company has mitigating circumstances - they're fallible mortals who make mistakes under pressure, and so-on.

An eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God, on the other hand...

 

[lesliedellow]

I couldn't have said it better myself. "then you are responsible for that entire history."
That is exactly what Calvinism, when carried through to it's logical conclusion, says. "God is responsible for all the evil and sin that men do."

Isaiah 45.7

Then God punishes man for committing sins that he had no choice but to do.

Well, that is where you get into a philosophical debate about compatibilism. Even though the treachery of Judas (for example) had been preordained by God, he would certainly have said that it was a choice he had freely made. An atheist, who for quite other reasons, is a determinist, has the same problem.

 

[ecco]

I respectfully disagree. Given, for the sake of argument, an omniscient god, free will is equally feasible.

Sure, if you define free will as being predetermined to have no choice but to do exactly what an omniscient being knows you will and nothing else. Which some people do, of course, which tells me that this subject is hopeless lost to philosophers playing word games.

Not predetermination. Not predestination.
True Free Will and True Omniscience.

for the sake of argument...consider

• Man considers Omniscience and Free Will to be logically incompatible.
• Man's logic is based on Man's abilities.
• An ant's abilities are far more closely related to a man's abilities than man's abilities are related to a god's abilities.
• An ant can look at the Golden Gate Bridge and be completely clueless as to its origin or purpose.
• If an ant cannot comprehend the Golden Gate Bridge, then how is man supposed to be able to comprehend the feasibility of a god's omniscience and man's free will coexisting?

for the sake of argument

 

[quatona]

Not predetermination. Not predestination.
True Free Will and True Omniscience.

for the sake of argument...consider

• Man considers Omniscience and Free Will to be logically incompatible.
• Man's logic is based on Man's abilities.
• An ant's abilities are far more closely related to a man's abilities than man's abilities are related to a god's abilities.
• An ant can look at the Golden Gate Bridge and be completely clueless as to its origin or purpose.
• If an ant cannot comprehend the Golden Gate Bridge, then how is man supposed to be able to comprehend the feasibility of a god's omniscience and man's free will coexisting?

for the sake of argument

Yeah, you can defend any nonsensical claim about God, using this line of reasoning.

 

[Belk]

My point of view is that knowing the future does not require the one knowing future events to make them happen. There simply isn't that correlation, although people seem to assume that because it's God we're talking about, there has to be one.

Ah! True having foreknowledge does not necessitate that you are making them happen. That is from the creating everything and having unlimited power comes in.

Why would he have to do that? It's not that he's capable of it, but why would he have to "script" every last thing that is to happen?

Because I can see no way he would be able to not do so giving what I am told of his characteristics. Perhaps it will help if I try a simple analogy to explain my reasoning.

Let us say that God has only been given the foreknowledge and power to be able to create one of three possible universes. He knows that if he creates universe X he will have x happen and if he creates universe Y he will have y happen, Create Z and z will happen. So God knows at the time of creation exactly what will happen if he creates X,Y, or Z. He must then determine which outcome he wants when he creates the universe.

Now, take that and instead of only being able to create three he could create whatever he wants. However he must still decide at the time of creation exactly which of those universes is going to come about.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Albion]

If you are responding to my comments, please quote a bit of it so I know your response is directed to me.


Personal Opinion? Hardly. A person can set bad examples for his children and teach them to to care for no one and nothing or he can set good examples and teach them right from wrong. These actions instill various levels of morality into the child.

There difference there would seem to be between moral and immoral. That doesn't shed any light on God's creation of Adam and Eve.

God did it more directly - He created A&E fully formed, fully functioning, able to speak the language he instilled into their minds, able to judge right from wrong based on the morality He instilled into them.

OK. There are no "levels of morals" in that.

I do not question God's morality insofar as how He created A&E. I do question His morality in blaming them and all mankind thereafter for their actions - since He knew before He created them that they would disobey Him.

Very well, but we can address that. It was the "levels of morality" idea that--having been mentioned several times--caused a problem. He endowed them with free choice and instructed them on their "dos and don'ts." They chose to disobey. I see nothing perplexing about that. You seem to think he had some obligation to make them such that they could NOT make a poor judgment or disobey him. He could have done that, of course, but the thinking is--and the Genesis account supports it--that he wanted something better than a robot. Even though Adam and Eve chose badly, that's what he got.