God's foreknowledge and free will

[brocke]

I think I have the right forum thread for this one. Please move the thread if it belongs somewhere else.

Okay this will be a debate concerning God's foreknowledge of what will happen and if we have free will vs everything is predestined/determined.

God knows that in 50 years on a given Sunday you will go out and mow the grass. When that Sunday in 50 years comes along, you decide to watch football instead of mowing the grass.

Does this make God false? Did God know you would decide otherwise? Do you have free will to make this kind of decision? Does the scenario even apply to God's foreknowledge and our ability to have free-will or is everything determined already?

For me God would know you would not mow the yard when the time came. The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

 

[Albion]

The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

It actually raises no such questions.

God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he "scripts" it. It's in his power to do that, of course, but there's no reason to conclude that his foreknowledge necessarily determines our actions in the future.

 

[ecco]

...Okay this will be a debate concerning God's foreknowledge of what will happen and if we have free will vs everything is predestined/determined.

God knows that in 50 years on a given Sunday you will go out and mow the grass. When that Sunday in 50 years comes along, you decide to watch football instead of mowing the grass.

Does this make God false? Did God know you would decide otherwise? Do you have free will to make this kind of decision? Does the scenario even apply to God's foreknowledge and our ability to have free-will or is everything determined already?

For me God would know you would not mow the yard when the time came. The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided?

God's Foreknowledge and mankind's Free Will are not mutually exclusive.

What questions does this raise about God being in control?

It only raises the question of why God blamed Adam & Eve for their disobedience and subsequently conferred SIN and hardship upon mankind for all generations.

He knew they would disobey Him long before He ever created them in the manner, and with the morals, He created them.

 

[Thewonderer]

I think I have the right forum thread for this one. Please move the thread if it belongs somewhere else.

Okay this will be a debate concerning God's foreknowledge of what will happen and if we have free will vs everything is predestined/determined.

God knows that in 50 years on a given Sunday you will go out and mow the grass. When that Sunday in 50 years comes along, you decide to watch football instead of mowing the grass.

Does this make God false? Did God know you would decide otherwise? Do you have free will to make this kind of decision? Does the scenario even apply to God's foreknowledge and our ability to have free-will or is everything determined already?

For me God would know you would not mow the yard when the time came. The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

For me it again raises the question, what is the point of prayer?

Not in the sense of communication, but when you are specifically praying for something to happen.

 

[Albion]

For me it again raises the question, what is the point of prayer?

Not in the sense of communication, but when you are specifically praying for something to happen.

Good point. It should raise that question.


.

 

[dysert]

It actually raises no such questions.

God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he "scripts" it. It's in his power to do that, of course, but there's no reason to conclude that his foreknowledge necessarily determines our actions in the future.

You are right on, and to prove it people may want to read 1 Sam. 23:1-13. God told David what would happen (foreknowledge), but David took action and what God told David would no longer happen. So to rephrase what Albion said, God's foreknowledge does not imply His predestination.

 

[Albion]

You are right on, and to prove it people may want to read 1 Sam. 23:1-13. God told David what would happen (foreknowledge), but David took action and what God told David would no longer happen. So to rephrase what Albion said, God's foreknowledge does not imply His predestination.

Yes. However, it also does not preclude predestination if that's understood to refer only to the matter of being among God's Elect or not.

 

[ecco]

... David took action and what God told David would no longer happen.

2 ... The Lord answered David, “Yes, go attack the Philistines. Save Keilah.”
4... the Lord answered David, “Go down to Keilah. I will help you defeat the Philistines.”

David’s men fought the Philistines. They defeated them ... David saved the people of Keilah.​

So far, everything God foretold came to pass.

10 David prayed, “Will Saul come to Keilah?
The Lord answered, “Saul will come.”

12 Again David asked, “Will the people of Keilah give me and my men to Saul?”
The Lord answered, “They will.”

13 So David and his men left Keilah. There were about 600 men who went with David. They kept moving from place to place. Saul learned that David had escaped from Keilah, so he did not go to that city.
​

This only indicates that God knew that David would be captured if he stayed in Keilah. David, with Free Will, left.

​

So to rephrase what Albion said, God's foreknowledge does not imply His predestination.

God knew, if David stayed, he would be captured. He also knew David would leave of his own Free Will.


Just as He knew before He created them, that Adam & Eve would disobey Him. He created them to fail and rain sin on mankind. The problem is that He put the blame on Adam & Eve ...

16 Then God said to the woman,
“I will cause you to have much trouble
when you are pregnant.
And when you give birth to children,
you will have much pain."

17 Then God said to the man,
“So I will curse the ground because of you.
You will have to work hard all your life for the food the ground produces.
18 The ground will grow thorns and weeds for you.
And you will have to eat the plants that grow wild in the fields.
19 You will work hard for your food,
until your face is covered with sweat.
You will work hard until the day you die...”
​

... when it is clear that this was His plan all along.

And then there was more Godly hand wringing:

5 The Lord saw that the people on the earth were very evil. He saw that they thought only about evil things all the time.6 The Lord was sorry that he had made people on the earth. It made him very sad in his heart.7 So the Lordsaid, “I will destroy all the people I created on the earth. I will destroy every person and every animal and everything that crawls on the earth. And I will destroy all the birds in the air, because I am sorry that I have made them.”​

Why is He claiming to be sorry when everything went exactly as he ForeKnew? He ForeKnew that he would "destroy every person" long before He ever created the Universe.

 

[dysert]

Yes. However, it also does not preclude predestination if that's understood to refer only to the matter of being among God's Elect or not.

I used the word "predestination" in the very limited sense of pre-determining what would happen in that particular case.

 

[KCfromNC]

It actually raises no such questions.

God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he "scripts" it.

Of course. The possibility of foreknowledge just means that determinism is true. It doesn't explain what causes it.

Granted, I'd imagine that Christians would have difficulty with the idea that god is just a passive observer rather than the creator of the known universe, but there's nothing which logically requires it if we start with the assumption that omniscience is a thing.

 

[dysert]

... when it is clear that this was His plan all along.​

​

Where is this made clear?

And then there was more Godly hand wringing:

5 The Lord saw that the people on the earth were very evil. He saw that they thought only about evil things all the time.6 The Lord was sorry that he had made people on the earth. It made him very sad in his heart.7 So the Lordsaid, “I will destroy all the people I created on the earth. I will destroy every person and every animal and everything that crawls on the earth. And I will destroy all the birds in the air, because I am sorry that I have made them.”​

Why is He claiming to be sorry when everything went exactly as he ForeKnew? He ForeKnew that he would "destroy every person" long before He ever created the Universe.

Just because you know something is coming doesn't mean that you can't be sorry once it comes.

 

[Albion]

I used the word "predestination" in the very limited sense of pre-determining what would happen in that particular case.

I thought that was the case.

I was mainly clarifying for the benefit other posters who might have taken it to mean something else--as often happens with that subject.

 

[ecco]

... The possibility of foreknowledge just means that determinism is true. ...

I respectfully disagree. Given, for the sake of argument, an omniscient god, free will is equally feasible.

 

[dysert]

I thought that was the case.

I was mainly clarifying for the benefit other posters who might have taken it to mean something else--as often happens with that subject.

Good idea, Albion. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

That's correct. Foreknowledge does not mean that there must be determinism. This is widely understood although apparently not by our friend here.

 

[ecco]

ecco:
... when it is clear that this was His plan all along.


And then there was more Godly hand wringing:
5 The Lord saw that the people on the earth were very evil. He saw that they thought only about evil things all the time.6 The Lord was sorry that he had made people on the earth. It made him very sad in his heart.7 So the Lordsaid, “I will destroy all the people I created on the earth. I will destroy every person and every animal and everything that crawls on the earth. And I will destroy all the birds in the air, because I am sorry that I have made them.”

Why is He claiming to be sorry when everything went exactly as he ForeKnew? He ForeKnew that he would "destroy every person" long before He ever created the Universe.​

​

Where is this made clear?

If you believe in God's omniscience, how can it not be clear?

Just because you know something is coming doesn't mean that you can't be sorry once it comes.

But it goes far beyond just knowing. It attests to God's plan. A plan that He had an eternity to contemplate. A plan developed with absolute ForeKnowledge.


You don't plan and ensure something as serious as your creation's downfall and then claim to be sorry that your ensured plan came to fruition.

 

[dysert]

But it goes far beyond just knowing. It attests to God's plan. A plan that He had an eternity to contemplate. A plan developed with absolute ForeKnowledge.

You don't plan and ensure something as serious as your creation's downfall and then claim to be sorry that your ensured plan came to fruition.

I planned to euthanize my cat. I implemented that plan. I still cried.

 

[ecco]

I planned to euthanize my cat. I implemented that plan. I still cried.

That is almost a good analogy.

God planned to destroy almost everything. He implemented that plan. He said he felt sorrow.

Here is the problem with your analogy. God blamed Adam & Eve for the sins of the world. Did you blame your cat?

 

[dysert]

That is almost a good analogy.

God planned to destroy almost everything. He implemented that plan. He said he felt sorrow.

Here is the problem with your analogy. God blamed Adam & Eve for the sins of the world. Did you blame your cat?

I did not blame my cat. She was innocent. Adam & Eve were not.

 

[ecco]

I did not blame my cat. She was innocent. Adam & Eve were not.

Your cat was just as innocent as Adam & Eve.


Have you ever tried to build a structure with leggos? Just one loggo block on top of another. Like this...

On grass. Fifty feet high. We both know it will topple long before you get anywhere near 50 feet.

Are the leggos guilty for falling? Or is the problem with you, the creator, for trying to build a 50 foot tower with just one leggo stacked upon another on grass?

God created Adam and Eve fully formed. God instilled into them a certain level of morality. With ForeKnowlege, god knew, long before he ever created them, that they, having the level of morality that He instilled into them and using their god-given free will, would disobey.

On the other hand, perhaps you do not believe that god is omniscient or perhaps you believe that godly omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.