Why Abortion is Immoral

[redleghunter]

I think that having free will isn't an excuse to intentionally do bad things to other persons or to deprive them of life. I don't think anyone is saying that an unborn person is more important than the pregnant woman, though the unborn person is more vulnerable.

Abortion is profoundly wrong even in cases of rape, since the child is still a human person. But if a woman has freely chosen to engage in sex, and in doing so conceives a child, then she has already freely chosen to be pregnant with human life. Likewise the father, in freely choosing to engage in sex, has chosen to be a responsible for the life he conceived.

Both you and @Uncle Siggy keep using that "R" word for responsibility. That is a VERY dangerous word to use in front of 'smart mouthed' teens and abortion advocates.

Yes, it takes two to "Tango." And two must take responsibility for their actions as the result can be a new human being.

 

[patricius79]

I don't think a man has any idea of the profound violation that rape causes a woman to feel. Much less when that rape causes a pregnancy. No, that zygote isn't responsible for the rape however, that woman that survived the rape has every right not to want to carry that seeded reminder of her rapist inside her body for nearly a year.
....

And for those who think a raped woman must have her rapists seed and carry it to term, I dare you , dare you, to volunteer at a rape crisis center and learn what rape is. And what it does to a woman. It isn't sex! It's violation and physical abuse using the male organ as a weapon in a vile violent sexual assault.
Walk your talk. Don't preach to a woman when you have a penis. Walk your talk. It is our body it is our choice. Your rights as a man stop where our body begins.

I agree that rape is an absolutely heinous crime and that it hurts a person beyond words. I believe that abortion is a heinous crime also which hurts a person beyond words.. No, I can't very well imagine what it is like to be raped--or to have had an abortion-- but I have been through traumas in my own life. I think the fact that I can't fully understand what it is like to be a woman, and to be raped, doesn't justify the killing of a human life.

As far as consensual sex between a man and woman, I don't agree that a man has no rights as to a child conceived through sex. When a man freely engages in sex, he accepts responsibility for any child that may be conceived, and has the right to be a father to that child. The woman likewise accepts responsibility for that child, and has the right to be mother to that child.

 

[variant]

What you posit above would seem to be a valid postmodern case for subjective morals.

At what point do we become human beings?

It's hard to say you ever "become" a human being, if you exist that is what you are.

As I said earlier though I don't think that is the key question here, I think the key question is what one person can rightfully claim of another.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Hi,

What are you talking about off topic?

And, anyone who wishes to use Catholic.com as a resource, needs to know they have unfairly, unjustifiably arbitrarily, hurt someone I know.

They are not a solid reference. They are possible reference only, as their purposeful mistake, has discredited them to me.
LOVE,

Catholic.com certainly seems to have some wannabe inquisitors for moderators, as well as (due to necessity) specious polemics, but many RCs invoke them, but they can be referenced for any "official" (which itself can see RC debate) RC teachings they pass on.

As for official, the CCC states,

Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. CCC, 2271, 2272

However, as i recall Caths hold about the same views on abortion as Prots, and are more liberal than evangelicals, and as the CCC treats even proabortion public figures as members in life and in death, it manifests its real present belief on at least the gravity of the guilt of abortion.

 

[fhansen]

Catholic.com certainly seems to have some wannabe inquisitors for moderators, as well as (due to necessity) specious polemics, but many RCs invoke them, but they can be referenced for any "official" (which itself can see RC debate) RC teachings they pass on.

As for official, the CCC states,

Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. CCC, 2271, 2272

However, as i recall Caths hold about the same views on abortion as Prots, and are more liberal than evangelicals, and as the CCC treats even proabortion public figures as members in life and in death, it manifests its real present belief on at least the gravity of the guilt of abortion.

I'm not sure what "the CCC treats even proabortion public figures as members in life and in death" means. In any case this is the position of the CC :
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I don't think a man has any idea of the profound violation that rape causes a woman to feel. Much less when that rape causes a pregnancy. No, that zygote isn't responsible for the rape however, that woman that survived the rape has every right not to want to carry that seeded reminder of her rapist inside her body for nearly a year....It is our body it is our choice.

I certainly understand how this crime would be expected to cause an enormity of grief to the victim, and warrants deep support of them. However, i am informed that less than 1% of all abortions take place because of rape and/or incest, while the majority are convenience, and while you used rape as an argument against abortion, it seems that you are proabortion even for the majority of them.

Moreover, as wrong as rape is, if someone ripped open the door of your car and threw in infant in it, or if you invited someone in your car who snuck in a baby, then you would not have the right to throw the infant, no matter how smelly and unwanted, out the window over a bridge.

Yes, it is your car, but you simply do not have the right to kill innocent life by expelling it from what is yours, be it car or body.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I'm not sure what "the CCC treats even proabortion public figures as members in life and in death" means.

Well, it means they do. Or do you think the Ted Kennedy RCs were/are treated otherwise? The latter even wrote to the pope an impenitent letter and received a cordial letter back from the pope, thanking Ted for his prayers, with no manifest rebuke. Which was before TK received a church funeral, as did Hugo Chavez, Mayor Menino, etc. Add to proabortion that of being proSodomite as well.

 

[SteveB28]

Well, it means they do. Or do you think the Ted Kennedy RCs were/are treated otherwise? The latter even wrote to the pope an impenitent letter and received a cordial letter back from the pope, thanking Ted for his prayers, with no manifest rebuke. Add to proabortion that of being proSodimite as well.

All very uninteresting and irrelevant. Can I remind you that this discussion is based upon a SECULAR argument that abortion is immoral - please go back and check the opening statements. You may wish to let the initiator of the discussion off the hook by deflecting the arguments in other directions, but I do not.

 

[Uncle Siggy]

Both you and @Uncle Siggy keep using that "R" word for responsibility. That is a VERY dangerous word to use in front of 'smart mouthed' teens and abortion advocates.

Yes, it takes two to "Tango." And two must take responsibility for their actions as the result can be a new human being.

You know it's been 4 hrs since you dropped the "R" word and nobody has done "A drive by" on you, that's amazing...

 

[Uncle Siggy]

abortion advocates.

When I was looking at abortion statistics I came across something that I find to be incongruous. For some reason the above mentioned think this country is mean/evil and that we should be more like Europe... But the abortion rate in Europe is way lower than it is here, things that make you go Hmmm...

 

[fhansen]

Well, it means they do. Or do you think the Ted Kennedy RCs were/are treated otherwise? The latter even wrote to the pope an impenitent letter and received a cordial letter back from the pope, thanking Ted for his prayers, with no manifest rebuke. Which was before TK received a church funeral, as did Hugo Chavez, Mayor Menino, etc. Add to proabortion that of being proSodomite as well.

The church teaches the truth, while not always willing to chastise-or, where called for, excommunicate -those who don't adhere to it, although the Vatican's been taking a tougher stance on such matters lately. Anyway, the conscience itself is understood to be inviolable; regardless of what the church says or does the final judge is God-we all have to face Truth in the end and see how we measured up.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Hi,

That boy recovered from brain death.

LOVE,

Then he wasn't really brain dead, of course.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

All very uninteresting and irrelevant. Can I remind you that this discussion is based upon a SECULAR argument that abortion is immoral - please go back and check the opening statements. You may wish to let the initiator of the discussion off the hook by deflecting the arguments in other directions, but I do not.

Very well: I jumped in midstream and did not see the OP but commented on a post relative to Catholicism, as it seems that somehow became relevant as to determining truth.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

The church teaches the truth, while not always willing to chastise-or, where called for, excommunicate -those who don't adhere to it, although the Vatican's been taking a tougher stance on such matters lately. Anyway, the conscience itself is understood to be inviolable; regardless of what the church says or does the final judge is God-we all have to face Truth in the end and see how we measured up.

At the risk of being charged with contributing to an off topic argument, yes, conscience itself is understood to be inviolable, but which does not translate into necessarily being correct, which Scripture is.

 

[fhansen]

At the risk of being charged with contributing to an off topic argument, yes, conscience itself is understood to be inviolable, but which does not translate into necessarily being correct, which Scripture is.

Yes, consciences don't necessarily align with truth.

 

[patricius79]

Both you and @Uncle Siggy keep using that "R" word for responsibility. That is a VERY dangerous word to use in front of 'smart mouthed' teens and abortion advocates.

Yes, it takes two to "Tango." And two must take responsibility for their actions as the result can be a new human being.

And when a new, valuable human life results from sex, it means that something has gone right, nor wrong. Some say, "I got pregnant by accident" even though they freely chose to have sex. We are becoming so confused as a people that we are not even seeing the intrinsic connection between sex and the conception of valuable human persons.

I think the argument by the OP stands. We have no right to intentionally deprive a conceived person of a valuable human future either based on our own convenience or for any other rationalization.

And I say this without judging anyone.

 

[redleghunter]

And when a new, valuable human life results from sex, it means that something has gone right, nor wrong. Some say, "I got pregnant by accident" even though they freely chose to have sex. We are becoming so confused as a people that we are not even seeing the intrinsic connection between sex and the conception of valuable human persons.

I think the argument by the OP stands. We have no right to intentionally deprive a conceived person of a valuable human future either based on our own convenience or for any other rationalization.

A most astute conclusion.

 

[jenny1972]

All very uninteresting and irrelevant. Can I remind you that this discussion is based upon a SECULAR argument that abortion is immoral - please go back and check the opening statements. You may wish to let the initiator of the discussion off the hook by deflecting the arguments in other directions, but I do not.

from a secular point of view do you believe that the unnecessary killing another human being is immoral ?

 

[Uncle Siggy]

rationalization.

Uh Oh there's another one of those nonpolitically correct "R" words...

 

[jenny1972]

Then he wasn't really brain dead, of course.

but some people considered that boy a non-person who could be killed .