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Why Abortion is Immoral

redleghunter

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Uh Oh there's another one of those nonpolitically correct "R" words...

Yes and some still think "rationalization" is somehow being rational.

rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic

rationalization: In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means.[2] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)
 
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Uncle Siggy

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Yes and some still think "rationalization" is somehow being rational.

rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic

rationalization: In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means.[2] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

I've seen that behavior quite a bit in the 3 weeks I've been here... Their parents must have given them $20 when they were young and told them to get lost, so they never learned anything of use...
 
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redleghunter

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I've seen that behavior quite a bit in the 3 weeks I've been here... Their parents must have given them $20 when they were young and told them to get lost, so they never learned anything of use...

I just wonder how they get good Wi-Fi in their parent's basement.
 
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Uncle Siggy

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I just wonder how they get good Wi-Fi in their parent's basement.

On Mommy/Daddy's dime...

Call me old fashioned but I have Roadrunner and CAT6 run to every room including the basement, I did all of this wiring while my house was being built...

The only time I use WiFi is at a "trusted" source with my phone, which has nothing stored on it other than phone numbers...
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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And when a new, valuable human life results from sex, it means that something has gone right, nor wrong. Some say, "I got pregnant by accident" even though they freely chose to have sex. We are becoming so confused as a people that we are not even seeing the intrinsic connection between sex and the conception of valuable human persons.

I think the argument by the OP stands. We have no right to intentionally deprive a conceived person of a valuable human future either based on our own convenience or for any other rationalization.

And I say this without judging anyone.

I'm a conceived person. You are a conceived person. A fetus is not yet a person, even though it is the result of conception.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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but some people considered that boy a non-person who could be killed .

No doubt it is possible to make an error on this issue from time to time. But in the context of looking for personhood in a developing fetus, it is not reasonable to believe that while the brain is the size of a walnut or smaller it can be considered a person.
 
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Blondepudding

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I certainly understand how this crime would be expected to cause an enormity of grief to the victim, and warrants deep support of them. However, i am informed that less than 1% of all abortions take place because of rape and/or incest, while the majority are convenience, and while you used rape as an argument against abortion, it seems that you are proabortion even for the majority of them.
Incorrect. And I presented my argument badly if that's the impression you have received in reading my remarks.
I am pro-choice. Meaning, a woman's personal sovereignty over her womb is her private right to decide to carry to term or not and is therefore none of my business.

Also, I don't think we can actually know the number of conceptions that occur due to rape because we can't first prove all rapes are reported. And then also we can't know if there was conception at the time of the rape in order to arrive at a valid number of rape conceptions. That makes it harder then to calculate how many abortions occurred because of the rape.


Moreover, as wrong as rape is, if someone ripped open the door of your car and threw in infant in it, or if you invited someone in your car who snuck in a baby, then you would not have the right to throw the infant, no matter how smelly and unwanted, out the window over a bridge.

Yes, it is your car, but you simply do not have the right to kill innocent life by expelling it from what is yours, be it car or body.
Not really a valid comparison there.
If someone ripped open the door of my car and threw an infant in it, they'd demonstrate they're not fit to have a child in their custody in the first place. And I'd be quite happy to protect that child from such a person by locking that door and speeding away with the child and to safety.

But that's not a rape scenario is it?
The baby is already born, dressed, crying, "smelly and unwanted" . And a car is not a uterus.

Whereas, if a man breaks into a woman's hotel room, beats her to near unconsciousness, rips her panties off and has his way and after the fact she's late and finds she's pregnant two weeks after the rape, she's fully entitled to decide whether or not she wishes to bring a 'rape baby' into the world.
Because every day of those nine months she's reminded as her body changes of that violent unconscionable man that ripped the door of her car open and tossed his sperm inside. Her DNA mingled with his. And when that child is born they'll look somewhat like that rapist. A growing nine month repeated reminder of the rape that made that pregnancy possible is what that car owner would suffer.

I don't believe I am entitled to command that rape survivor to stay pregnant with her rapists sperm result and against her will. That would be a second violation of her body. First she's raped. And then she's told, too bad, you have to keep the fruit of that rape alive inside you. Just like with the violence of the rape that rape victim would again be shown in that command to remain pregnant that she has no choice but to be a victim of her rapist again and for nine months.

I believe that rape survivor has a choice as to whether she wishes to give her rapists offspring life. Because should he be caught he would have the legal right to claim parental rights over her child if she carried to term. Imagine that one.
She's raped, she survives, she conceives, she chooses to keep the baby, her rapist is prosecuted, goes to prison, and when he get's out sues for parental rights and partial custody of his son or daughter. So that the rape survivor then would have to see him when he comes to visit and pick up the product of his violation of her. And this would last for 18 years and more.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Incorrect. And I presented my argument badly if that's the impression you have received in reading my remarks.
I am pro-choice. Meaning, a woman's personal sovereignty over her womb is her private right to decide to carry to term or not and is therefore none of my business..

Which means i was not incorrect, as based upon your stated principal of personal rights over your own personal property which trumps the principal that killing innocent life is wrong, then you support a women's right to do what she wants with the occupants of her body, whether it be abortion bcz of rape or the normal reason of convenience.

Also, I don't think we can actually know the number of conceptions that occur due to rape

Regardless it would still be a minority, while we can only go on what we can know.

Not really a valid comparison there.If someone ripped open the door of my car and threw an infant in it, they'd demonstrate they're not fit to have a child in their custody in the first place. And I'd be quite happy to protect that child from such a person by locking that door and speeding away with the child and to safety.

It is a valid comparison, as the point is that both are your property and if can kill the you can unwanted occupants of one then you can do the same with those of the other, if you wish. That in this case you may want them is irrelevant to that fact. The only real difference is your desire. And note that analogies need not have to have complete correspondence to be valid. The kingdom of God... is like a grain of mustard seed.... (Mark 4:30-31)

And a car is not a uterus.

Again irrelevant as it is analogous to your body as being your possession.

Whereas, if a man breaks into a woman's hotel room.. she's fully entitled to decide whether or not she wishes to bring a 'rape baby' into the world.

Again, this is essentially the same thing as ejecting an unwanted innocent life from your car that you were forced to accept, or because you chose to take a risk. As awful as it may be, and as much as it is your possession, the principal against killing innocent life overides your personal rights. Unless you think throwing unwanted innocent people out your window unto death is your right. Which you actually do, if you do not want them.

Because every day of those nine months she's reminded as her body changes of that violent unconscionable man that ripped the door of her car open and tossed his sperm inside.

Thus you are simply confirming my argument. Your personal rights override the the sacred nature of innocent life. And again, despite the the moral outrage of your overrepresented overworked rape example, in principal your argument that "a woman's personal sovereignty over her womb is her private right to decide to carry to term or not" implicitly sanctions convenience abortions.
I don't believe I am entitled to command that rape survivor to stay pregnant with her rapists sperm result and against her will.

The more your repeat that then the more your affirm that personal rights trump the rights of innocent life against being murdered, and the principal of the sacred nature of innocent life which would make you guilty of murder if you killed that innocent life outside the womb. And unless your argument is that the aborted is not truly human life till x amount of months, then your sanction is that of killing an unwanted innocent occupant of your body/car/home at any stage of life.

should he be caught he would have the legal right to claim parental rights over her child...And this would last for 18 years and more.

Which law where it exists can be changed. And at the least the rapist should be compelled to support the women and child. In a crisis, a government may force people to accept refugees into their home, but the owner does not have the right to throw them out the window or otherwise kill them. Yet neither does the refugee have a right to that home, anymore than a squatter does.

And again, despite the employment of argument by outrage, however outrageous the reality of rape can be, it remains that your real argument is that of a woman's personal sovereignty over her womb, and thus i have dealt with the consequences of that argument.
 
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Blondepudding

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Which means i was not incorrect, as based upon your stated principal of personal rights over your own personal property which trumps the principal that killing innocent life is wrong, then you support a women's right to do what she wants with the occupants of her body, whether it be abortion bcz of rape or the normal reason of convenience.
My position isn't that hard to comprehend. A woman's body is her personal property and consequently any choice she makes in matters of pregnancy are her own.
Dismissing the decision a woman makes to have an abortion as that of 'convenience' isn't fair or informed. However, commanding every woman remain pregnant against her will isn't either.
 
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jenny1972

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No doubt it is possible to make an error on this issue from time to time. But in the context of looking for personhood in a developing fetus, it is not reasonable to believe that while the brain is the size of a walnut or smaller it can be considered a person.
it doesnt stay that way very long at all its a very temporary condition that corrects itself within months the only reason they considered it acceptable to kill the boy was because they believed it was permanent and not temporary . when dealing with humans that are in a known temporary mental state (sleep,coma,exc.) we take the temporary nature of it into account and dont label them as non-persons . so my point is that if you consider someone who is in a temporary coma still a person as any rational person would do then a temporary mental state is really not what determines non personhood its age or something else .
 
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PeaceByJesus

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My position isn't that hard to comprehend. A woman's body is her personal property and consequently any choice she makes in matters of pregnancy are her own.
Dismissing the decision a woman makes to have an abortion as that of 'convenience' isn't fair or informed.

You position indeed isn't that hard to comprehend: that one has the right to kill unwanted persons in something they possess, "as a woman's personal sovereignty over her womb is her private right to decide to carry to term or not" = to kill or not to kill. Which in principle extends all any and all unwanted persons, even if innocent and through not fault of their own.

Yet if you did so to another innocent person outside the womb even for a second then you could be charged with murder.
Dismissing the decision a woman makes to have an abortion as that of 'convenience' isn't fair or informed.

Rather, i did not dismiss it as just a matter of convenience, but as being the norm in contrast to your constant recourse to the minority of cases, and the employment of which is what is not fair or informed. And it remains that even if this debate allowed abortion to be sanctioned in the case of rape, yet your foundational principal of sovereignty over one's womb to kill or not to kill its occupants would extend to all abortions.

However, commanding every woman remain pregnant against her will isn't either.

No? You mean killing the innocent is not murder, or forbidding murder is unjust since it is trumped by one's sovereignty over their own body, and in principal this extends to other inhabitable possessions. Yet you cannot even kill someone in your own car or home however unwanted, unless they are an immediate threat to your life and or others.
 
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patricius79

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I'm a conceived person. You are a conceived person. A fetus is not yet a person, even though it is the result of conception.

Why do you believe that human fetuses are not persons? I know that human beings in the womb are persons, just as babies are persons, and we are persons, even if we are in mortal sin 1 John 5:16
 
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patricius79

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it doesnt stay that way very long at all its a very temporary condition that corrects itself within months the only reason they considered it acceptable to kill the boy was because they believed it was permanent and not temporary . when dealing with humans that are in a known temporary mental state (sleep,coma,exc.) we take the temporary nature of it into account and dont label them as non-persons . so my point is that if you consider someone who is in a temporary coma still a person as any rational person would do then a temporary mental state is really not what determines non personhood its age or something else .

That is brilliantly correct. Personhood begins at conception because personhood is based on being, not one's momentary level of functionality. In other words, our dignity is primarily about who we are, not about our ability to do things.
 
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jenny1972

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My position isn't that hard to comprehend. A woman's body is her personal property and consequently any choice she makes in matters of pregnancy are her own.
Dismissing the decision a woman makes to have an abortion as that of 'convenience' isn't fair or informed. However, commanding every woman remain pregnant against her will isn't either.
The fetus has its own body a fetus body is not her body its someone elses
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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it doesnt stay that way very long at all its a very temporary condition that corrects itself within months the only reason they considered it acceptable to kill the boy was because they believed it was permanent and not temporary . when dealing with humans that are in a known temporary mental state (sleep,coma,exc.) we take the temporary nature of it into account and dont label them as non-persons . so my point is that if you consider someone who is in a temporary coma still a person as any rational person would do then a temporary mental state is really not what determines non personhood its age or something else .

If you are trying to argue that sometimes people make mistakes in deciding someone is finally dead, well of course that happens. I don't suppose we will ever progress to the point where such mistakes never happen. We can only seek to reduce them.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Why do you believe that human fetuses are not persons? I know that human beings in the womb are persons, just as babies are persons, and we are persons, even if we are in mortal sin 1 John 5:16

It is not something you "know" in the sense of having scientific or logical proof; it is, rather more like an axiom, something you assume to be true without having proof. That has always been the case in this discussion.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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That is brilliantly correct. Personhood begins at conception because personhood is based on being, not one's momentary level of functionality. In other words, our dignity is primarily about who we are, not about our ability to do things.

If there is no functioning mind that can assimilate and react to the outside world, that can form rational thoughts, that can learn language and how to think, then there is no personhood. The fact of having been started out . . . having been conceived . . . is not enough, yet. The brain has to grow and be there and be ready to function at a human level of functioning.
 
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patricius79

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It is not something you "know" in the sense of having scientific or logical proof.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm

Nobody has a logical or scientific proof or other proof that an unborn human being is not a person.

Therefore in order to be moral, and in order to be Christians, we must not only refrain from any killing, but do whatever good thing is in our power to stop the Hellish evil of abortion.

May our Mary and her Son help us!
 
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patricius79

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If there is no functioning mind that can assimilate and react to the outside world, that can form rational thoughts, that can learn language and how to think, then there is no personhood. The fact of having been started out . . . having been conceived . . . is not enough, yet. The brain has to grow and be there and be ready to function at a human level of functioning.

As Peter Kreeft writes:

How is a person to be defined? The crucial point for our argument is not which acts are to count as defining a person (is it speaking, or reasoning, or loving?) but the relation of these personal acts to the person-actor. Is a person:

  1. One who is consciously performing personal acts? If so, people who are asleep are not people, and we may kill them.
  2. One with a present capacity to perform personal acts? That would include sleepers, but not people in coma.
  3. One with a history of performing personal acts? That would mean that a 17-year-old who was born in a coma 17 years ago and is just now coming out of it is not a person. Also, by this definition there can be no first personal act, no personal acts without a history of past personal acts.
  4. One with a future capacity for performing personal acts? That would mean that dying persons are not persons.
Surely the correct answer is that a person is one with a natural, inherent capacity for performing personal acts. Why is one able to perform personal acts under proper conditions? Only because one is a person. One grows into the ability to perform personal acts only because one already is the kind of thing that grows into the ability to perform personal acts, i.e., a person.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm

Nobody has a logical or scientific proof or other proof that an unborn human being is not a person.

Therefore in order to be moral, and in order to be Christians, we must not only refrain from any killing, but do whatever good thing is in our power to stop the Hellish evil of abortion.

May our Mary and her Son help us!

The unborn human being in the first months of pregnancy clearly lacks ability to live outside the womb, to understand language, to make moral choices, to have any kind of higher mental life at all. Therefore it is not yet a person.

You cannot deny this logically, you can only deny this on faith. That you make this faith choice is up to you, but you don't have the right to make that faith choice on behalf of others.
 
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