ROC Declares War Against ISIS A 'Holy Battle'

[GregConstantine]

"What would you do differently now that you know what could happen with such a person?"

Can you be more specific?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't have answers, but I can say it has filtered down to the school system.

On the one hand, you have IEP's being written up for children who are, frankly, just lazy or defiant. Treated as "special" and pandering to that. On the other hand, you have children in regular classrooms who have real and dangerous psychotic breaks that no one knows what may set them off, and I may have to deal with that as well as keeping the entire class safe (hopefully) with no background or history with the student. Wouldn't want to hurt little Johnny's feelings by making him feel as though his psychotic episodes make him "different" or deny him the chance of "normal" school experiences.

And most often, they don't see the need of informing me which are which, or what might be present in my classroom.

And then we wonder why things go wrong if a weapon falls into their hands ...

Gun control is not where I'd start. I've had a student try to stab others with sharpened pencils.

 

[truefiction1]

"What would you do differently now that you know what could happen with such a person?"

Can you be more specific?

What might you have done differently that may have led to a better outcome for the sick man who took his own life?

 

[truefiction1]

I don't have answers, but I can say it has filtered down to the school system.

On the one hand, you have IEP's being written up for children who are, frankly, just lazy or defiant. Treated as "special" and pandering to that. On the other hand, you have children in regular classrooms who have real and dangerous psychotic breaks that no one knows what may set them off, and I may have to deal with that as well as keeping the entire class safe (hopefully) with no background or history with the student. Wouldn't want to hurt little Johnny's feelings by making him feel as though his psychotic episodes make him "different" or deny him the chance of "normal" school experiences.

And most often, they don't see the need of informing me which are which, or what might be present in my classroom.

And then we wonder why things go wrong if a weapon falls into their hands ...

Gun control is not where I'd start. I've had a student try to stab others with sharpened pencils.

A male student of a woman teacher I know had some significant problems. She tried on several occasions to get him adequate help by appealing to her district, but they didn't return with any kind of real response, and so the student slipped through the system. He murdered his girlfriend and will spend his life in a maximum security prison, and a young woman is no more. There doesn't seem to be the resources needed at the public school level to police all the evils of a broken down social mechanism.

 

[applejack23]

Russia funded and protected Iran which has been making incursions into Iraq for years destabilizing the new government causing Sunnis to turn to ISIS. They then kept the UN out of Syria allowing ISIS to gain ground because they wanted a pretext for sending troops in.

NATO removed nuclear materials for Islamists in Libya. The US has been fighting extremist Islamist groups for over 10 years while Russia has been building up Islamic nuclear capabilities in Iran. The recent air strikes Russia did were not even ISIS targets because they want ISIS in the region to give them a reason to stay.

 

[applejack23]

Anti-Semitism from Germany to Russia(holocaust and pogroms) and Colonialism from France,England,Spain were major sins. Now Europe feels guilty and is trying to atone for their sins by taking in migrants causing a massive flood. Here is a interesting side affect of this Christian love

http://mashable.com/2015/09/05/refugees-converting-to-christianity/#SWT0hiHIVSqp

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Russia funded and protected Iran which has been making incursions into Iraq for years destabilizing the new government causing Sunnis to turn to ISIS. They then kept the UN out of Syria allowing ISIS to gain ground because they wanted a pretext for sending troops in.

NATO removed nuclear materials for Islamists in Libya. The US has been fighting extremist Islamist groups for over 10 years while Russia has been building up Islamic nuclear capabilities in Iran. The recent air strikes Russia did were not even ISIS targets because they want ISIS in the region to give them a reason to stay.

Meanwhile, NATO funded and gave CIA training to the mujahideen who would later become al-Qaeda in order to fight the Soviets in the 80s. They toppled the Shah and rightful leader of Iran which gave way to Ayatollah Khomeini and the madness we see today. The US has also funded terrorist supporting nation states like Saudi Arabia and Iran whom fund terrorist groups in Palestine. There is also evidence to suggest that US government is also heavily involved with the Taliban's opium/heroin trade as well.

Of the two, nearly 70-75% of the problems you seen in the region today is a result of Anglo-American meddling. Take the very formation of Iraq for another example. America hasn't fought against terrorism or Wahhabism, it created it.

Also I never said that's Russia's interventions in Syria were the direct and sole result of Christian fidelity and compassion. I don't understand why this is being said. Regardless of the politico-economic factors at play, objectively, Russia has the brawn and is the only Christian power doing anything to help our brothers and sisters.

 

[applejack23]

No wars can be considered holy? WWII against the Nazis? The Crusades to halt Arab-Islamic imperialism? The Civil War in America which abolished the horrors of slavery? The revolutionary war which freed us from the yoke of England? There's numerous struggles I can think of.

WW2 stopped the Nazis but many innocents were killed also. The civil war freed the slaves but did not fix the hatred in the hearts of many Americans that manifested in jim crow in the south. The puritains originally treated natives with respect but the later generations committed genocide against them taking their land. The revolutionary war resulted in freedoms but only for white male landowners(or craftsman who lived in a town and owned more that 50lbs of trade related equipment). So some good came out of these things and I celebrate the good but most bad stuff did nothing sacred about it.

 

[applejack23]

The formation of Iraq was due to the Ottomans losing WW1. Had they not entered it Iraq would not have been formed.

You claim the US helps Palestinian terrorists yet Russia is fielding Shia terrorists in Syria...

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/russia-airstrikes-iran-hezbollah/2015/10/01/id/694203/

But yes NATO and the US has done a lot to destabilize the region also. Believe me I can criticize us just as much as anyone else.

 

[applejack23]

I love Christ and his ideals but I have no love for my ancestors they were no better or worse than anyone else. Anyone who is honest about their ancestors and culture will come to the same conclusion. Example: even native americans cannot pretend to be peaceful people. The native American Pequot tribe was taking over other tribes and killing those who would not be subservient to them. This was happening long before the English even got to New England.

 

[applejack23]

Humans are fallen and love hate,war, and death. This is why we need Christ to build us up from this fallen state. The Orthodox are correct in saying in the Canons that war is evil(one reason why I really respect the Orthodox church even though I am not Orthodox). The Catholics allowing for blessed military orders where fighting was holy was a corruption of Christ's teachings to love your enemy.

 

[applejack23]

Also I never said that's Russia's interventions in Syria were the direct and sole result of Christian fidelity and compassion. I don't understand why this is being said. Regardless of the politico-economic factors at play, objectively, Russia has the brawn and is the only Christian power doing anything to help our brothers and sisters.

Christians do not bother Assad because he knows they stick to themselves and thus are left alone. So yes Assad is good for the Christians in the region as Sunni extremists who would get rid of Christians are ousted. But as I pointed out this is just a lucky side affect not a objective of Russia. The US should have made Christian safe zones in Iraq to protect them from the tyranny of the majority and extremists they now face in Iraq but as in Syria politics trumped equal protection for innocents.

 

[GregConstantine]

"What might you have done differently that may have led to a better outcome for the sick man who took his own life?"

1) Some at my parish needed to at that time (this was a few years ago) acknowledge and accept the reality of mental illness, and that by doing that, it is not a threat to their Orthodox Christian faith. We do know that much of our behavior is regulated by neurochemicals in our brains. When those neurochemicals are out of whack, our behavior changes, or, it becomes more difficult for us to regulate our behavior with our consciousness. Drugs and their effects are proof of this.

2) This could not have been done by anyone in the parish, only by this guys' family members, but he needed to be institutionalized. His family was also in deep denial of their son's illness. He was a danger to himself and others.

Back to the original topic, there is something very wrong with our current foreign policy. Obama has not shown any leadership at all. I hope and pray that the next president will be better about this. I'm skeptical.

 

[jckstraw72]

Did I hear correctly? Did I hear Jesse pulling a Greg and saying, "you people aren't reading the entire post!" LOL

and guess who the offender is

 

[GregConstantine]

the original post spoke in very favorable terms of Russia's actions Syria. He then responded with a question asking rhetorically if the actions currently taken by Russia is saving our brothers and sisters in the middle east. It is reasonable to extrapolate that the original poster is in favor of Russia's actions. It is reasonable to bring up the possibility that Russia's actions are being hastily defended because the majority of her people are Orthodox. It is also reasonable to extrapolate this based on other comments by other commentators in the past that also rushed to Russia's defense. I pointed out that no nation state is immune from such criticism.

So yes, the posts have been read.

Sorry if you don't like the implications.

 

[truefiction1]

"What might you have done differently that may have led to a better outcome for the sick man who took his own life?"

1) Some at my parish needed to at that time (this was a few years ago) acknowledge and accept the reality of mental illness, and that by doing that, it is not a threat to their Orthodox Christian faith. We do know that much of our behavior is regulated by neurochemicals in our brains. When those neurochemicals are out of whack, our behavior changes, or, it becomes more difficult for us to regulate our behavior with our consciousness. Drugs and their effects are proof of this.

2) This could not have been done by anyone in the parish, only by this guys' family members, but he needed to be institutionalized. His family was also in deep denial of their son's illness. He was a danger to himself and others.

Back to the original topic, there is something very wrong with our current foreign policy. Obama has not shown any leadership at all. I hope and pray that the next president will be better about this. I'm skeptical.

1)If anything is going to be done to administer to such a need as you have brought up here (that is, the effective handling of parishioners suffering from mental/emotional disorders), it will not be done by those who aren't able to acknowledge and accept the reality that confronts them. It will be done by those who are aware and troubled by it.

2)The right things have to be done by somebody in the parish, even if not by the person's family members. You seem to understand the importance of our building up a way to minister to this specific need within the Church. I do too. Certain others do as well.

I'm not trying to derail this political oriented thread, but you have raised an important issue relating directly to parish life. There are measures that leaders within the Church can begin to take in order to ensure that this problem is met head on. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts and feelings in regard to this particular problem with your bishop, as well as any ideas you may have for building an infrastructure within parishes for serving those with such illnesses.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Here is a quote from HAH while speaking in Serbia

"War and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a result. They are for the most part machinations of the devil used to achieve unlawful ends. We say "for the most part" because, as is well known, in a few specific cases the Orthodox Church forgives an armed defense against oppression and violence. However, as a rule, peaceful resolution of differences and peaceful cooperation are more pleasing to God and more beneficial to humankind."

For those arguing that there is no such thing as a 'holy battle' or 'holy war' recognized by the Church; why would the Patriarch and others use such specific verbiage? Is this perhaps an issue of translating Russian into English?

 

[applejack23]

Applejack are you a CIA troll? That nonsense isnt going to work here. ISIS is a NATO creation thats why they are natural at driving those tanks they took from Iraq.
72 hours ago the western media refered to the syrian opposition (Daesh) as "homegrown opposition to Assad". Today the western media citing US officials are calling them "CIA trained assets".
So stop spewing the ignorant nonsense of John Mccain. On this board we have known and reported the truth for almost 2 years now.

Interesting note the Free Syrian Army has large amounts of Christians in it. It appears things are not as simple as good and bad.

http://www.albawaba.com/loop/assyrian-christians-become-latest-back-ypg-syria-724254

 

[applejack23]

Here is a quote from HAH while speaking in Serbia

"War and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a result. They are for the most part machinations of the devil used to achieve unlawful ends. We say "for the most part" because, as is well known, in a few specific cases the Orthodox Church forgives an armed defense against oppression and violence. However, as a rule, peaceful resolution of differences and peaceful cooperation are more pleasing to God and more beneficial to humankind."

For those arguing that there is no such thing as a 'holy battle' or 'holy war' recognized by the Church; why would the Patriarch and others use such specific verbiage? Is this perhaps an issue of translating Russian into English?

The Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church

Any act of violence contradicts the ethics and principles of the Kingdom of God. St. Basil states that although the act of violence may be required for the "defense of the weak and innocent…it is never justifiable."

Canon 13 of St. Basil
"Our Fathers did not consider the killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that they are not clean-handed."

St. Basil references the beginning of this canon to St. Athanasius in order to clarify and accurately interpret what was meant in his Letter to Amun (The Rudder). St. Basil the Great did not count the "shedding of blood" committed during wars as murder, but he does require the penitent to abstain from partaking of the Eucharist for three years. Although three years may seem harsh to us today, Fr. McGuckin states that this "was actually a commonly recognized sign of merciful leniency in the ancient rule book of the early Church."
Canon 83 of the Holy Apostles
"If any Bishop, or Priest, or Deacon is engaged in military matters, and wishes to hold both a Roman (i.e.; civil) and a holy office, let him be deposed. For "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s" (Matthew 22:21). -From http://orthodoxwiki.org/Just_war

 

[truefiction1]

Here is a quote from HAH while speaking in Serbia

"War and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a result. They are for the most part machinations of the devil used to achieve unlawful ends. We say "for the most part" because, as is well known, in a few specific cases the Orthodox Church forgives an armed defense against oppression and violence. However, as a rule, peaceful resolution of differences and peaceful cooperation are more pleasing to God and more beneficial to humankind."

For those arguing that there is no such thing as a 'holy battle' or 'holy war' recognized by the Church; why would the Patriarch and others use such specific verbiage? Is this perhaps an issue of translating Russian into English?

It may be the way that the media chose to spin it, or it may be that the translation skewed the story, or it may be that the Orthodox clerics are succumbing to the appeal or the pressures of war mongering heroism. Heroism is not martyrdom, its just an emotional tool (with fear, fueling rage at its core) that war mongering leaders use to compel troops into violent acts. It is the myth of heroism that "justifies" the act of killing. Our capacity for creating such works of fiction (mythological war heroism) is why we are so predisposed and adept, as a species, at waging war.

Certain primate groups (our genetic cousins) wage organized territorial wars against other groups of primates of their own species. We can probably do better than our monkey relatives.