The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[LoveofTruth]

Christ's teaching on the LAW and salvation is clear in Mark 7:6-13 pointing out that setting aside the commandment of God - is not the great wonderful thing that some have imagined it to be.
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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 67029837, member: 235244"]

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones?And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[/QUOTE]

You misunderstand here Jesus was made under the law and he kept it perfectly we can't he did. Every man has broken the law therefore All men deserve hell. If we break one law we have broken them all. That is why we have all been concluded under sin and why all need Jesus by faith

 

[nomadictheist]

Sorry you are partly right but you still need study. I believe I addressed how a man hasGid working IN him and this is the works we do in faith as the body without the spirit is dead so s professing burger without Gods Spirit working in him is dead to .

I am not sure why you tried to quote James. And Moses law and commandments are different than Jesus . Jesus would say did not Moses give you this or that but I say unto you. Or Jesus would say " anew commandment I give unto you"

Yes true believers can use the law to convict if sin but the law is not made for a righteous man. Are you righteous? If so the law is not made for you you are free from the law, dead to the law, not under the law the law is not of faith and you are delivered from the law. The law was a ministration of condemnation and death the law written on stones is done away and abolished


Let all who read consider very closely 2 Corinthians 4 and the entire book of Galatians Romans Hebrews and 1 Timothy particularly.

You didn't "reply" to anything I said. And I didn't "try" to quote James, I "did" quote James.

The law is righteous and good. Paul himself - your "poster child" for your argument - said that. He also said that the law did not bring death, but sin, acting through the law, brought death. (read my last post, which it doesn't seem like you read at all, for the chapter/verse on that).

I'm glad you bring up the "entire book of Galatians," as I carefully pointed out your Galatians fallacies using the surrounding text in Galatians. Galatians is, after all, more than just chapter 3.

The law is not made for a righteous man... there is none righteous, no not one.

And where do you keep repeating "the law is not of faith" from? Of course the law is not of faith... It's of God. Just as faith is of God. "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any should boast."

You keep misunderstanding Paul. Righteousness does not come by the law, not because the law is not righteous or good, but because we are incapable of righteousness. Therefore, if we trust in our works in the law for righteousness, we will fail. Because we are all born in sin.

However, if we trust in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father and the only sacrifice with the power to take away sin, for righteousness, God will send the Holy Spirit and He will empower us to live in obedience to God rather than to sin.

The law does not bring death. Sin brings death through the law. Paul did not ever preach breaking the law of God or that the law was abolished. He fought the party of circumcision, because circumcision was a sign of the old covenant.

When you call God's law unjust and evil, and say that God's law brought death, you mock and vilify God. God's law is just. His statutes are just. His law is good, and all His commandments are righteous.

Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law (something you keep trying to work around but just can't get there). So if Jesus didn't abolish the law, who did? Certainly not Paul. He would make no such claim.

I would echo Jesus warning (again) here as well: "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

 

[LoveofTruth]

You didn't "reply" to anything I said. And I didn't "try" to quote James, I "did" quote James.

The law is righteous and good. Paul himself - your "poster child" for your argument - said that. He also said that the law did not bring death, but sin, acting through the law, brought death. (read my last post, which it doesn't seem like you read at all, for the chapter/verse on that).

I'm glad you bring up the "entire book of Galatians," as I carefully pointed out your Galatians fallacies using the surrounding text in Galatians. Galatians is, after all, more than just chapter 3.

The law is not made for a righteous man... there is none righteous, no not one.

And where do you keep repeating "the law is not of faith" from? Of course the law is not of faith... It's of God. Just as faith is of God. "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any should boast."

You keep misunderstanding Paul. Righteousness does not come by the law, not because the law is not righteous or good, but because we are incapable of righteousness. Therefore, if we trust in our works in the law for righteousness, we will fail. Because we are all born in sin.

However, if we trust in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father and the only sacrifice with the power to take away sin, for righteousness, God will send the Holy Spirit and He will empower us to live in obedience to God rather than to sin.

The law does not bring death. Sin brings death through the law. Paul did not ever preach breaking the law of God or that the law was abolished. He fought the party of circumcision, because circumcision was a sign of the old covenant.

When you call God's law unjust and evil, and say that God's law brought death, you mock and vilify God. God's law is just. His statutes are just. His law is good, and all His commandments are righteous.

Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law (something you keep trying to work around but just can't get there). So if Jesus didn't abolish the law, who did? Certainly not Paul. He would make no such claim.

I would echo Jesus warning (again) here as well: "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Hello again, you have so much error I will have to address it when I am at home I am rushing about today. But Jesus was made under the law. He fulfilled the law perfectly. I never call Gids law unjust . And u find it strange how people like you seem to run from 2 Corinthians 3 . I have met seven day Adventist who also get troubled by Paul's deep revelation in 2 Corinthians 3.

As far as the law and death I quoted

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious..."(Romans 7:7)

Ok for now, your error will be a lengthy correction. I have to respond later.

 

[nomadictheist]

Hello again, you have so much error I will have to address it when I am at home I am rushing about today. But Jesus was made under the law. He fulfilled the law perfectly. I never call Gids law unjust . And u find it strange how people like you seem to run from 2 Corinthians 3 . I have met seven day Adventist who also get troubled by Paul's deep revelation in 2 Corinthians 3.

As far as the law and death I quoted

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious..."(Romans 7:7)

Ok for now, your error will be a lengthy correction. I have to respond later.

I have not "run" from anything.

You are the one who is running - from the words of Jesus. You think that you can hide behind Paul, but if he were alive he would leave you no place to hide.

I also quoted Paul, who said in Romans 7 that the law is good and righteous, and the law did not bring death. Sin brought death, and the law exposed sin.

You continually confuse the law of God with the old covenant under the law. While Paul often says we are free from the law and from sin, he also says frequently that we are slaves to Christ. And you tell me that I am in error because I agree with the law of God, as Paul himself does.

If you need me to go through each one of your references and show you what they mean, I can certainly do that...

2 Corinthians 3: Paul makes it exceedingly clear what he is talking about in verse 6 where he says that we are ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit.

And from this premise he continues to talk about how the covenant of the letter of the law brings death, because there is nobody who can keep the entire law. The new covenant of the Spirit brings life, because by God's power we are becoming obedient children as we have been commanded.

And I'm still waiting to hear who abolished the law... Jesus didn't - He said so Himself. So who did? I've noticed you run from anyone who quotes Jesus to you (or anybody besides Paul, for that matter). As Peter said, there are those who take the writings of Paul that are hard to understand and twist them...

Perhaps you should study the covenant of the law and the new covenant. It might help you understand the difference between freedom from the covenant of the law and whether the law is abolished and done away with. (I don't think you'll much enjoy fighting Jesus on that one).

Just another note about Paul... Paul frequently says that we must not continue to live in SIN. But we know from John that sin is transgression of the law. Now I know you're not too fond of John, but the epistles of John are just as much the word of God as the epistles of Paul (who himself speaks to the righteousness and goodness of the law).

So again, Paul is talking about the covenant of the law passing away, because that covenant never had the power to save and was only pointing toward the new covenant. That is why the "law is good if one uses it lawfully."

I guess I should apologize for saying I'll hit on all your references... To envelop the entire book of Hebrews would take too long for this forum, but nowhere in Hebrews does Paul (or the author of Hebrews if it's not Paul) say that the law is abolished and done away with.

Just a hint - one of the first principles of exegesis is that if something in the text seems to clash with other doctrine in the Bible, you need to look at other teaching on the same doctrine to find the best interpretation of it.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God loves His laws just as the earthly king loves his rules. They protect His children from law breakers, it's penalties acting as deterrents to those who would harm them when they are unrestrained and acting in unlawful ways. However, when a rule itself harms those it is supposed to protect, such as, for example, when orderly traffic and red lights comes in the way of a precious citizen of the king from reaching a hospital in time, the king sends outriders to force the traffic to pull over, suspends the lights and makes straight the path for the ambulance to reach its destination in a life saving manner. The law was made for man, not man for the law.

Similarly, when the Jews stopped Christ from healing on the Sabbath, He showed them their hypocrisy, since they rescued their cattle that had fallen into pits on the Sabbath and ruled it was right to save lives on the Sabbath. Even in orthodox quarters of modern Jerusalem, ambulances are allows to operate and doctors to work on the Sabbath. Jesus even used the precedent of David saving the lives of his men by letting them eat the shew bread.

Telling people to observe Sabbath is to tell them that God has not made available their rest from their own efforts to be saved, through works of the law, the rest available by hearing with faith, this salvation available because of the atoning of the cross, of which the sacrifices were a foreshadowing.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

By doing this, people who insist on law observance are keeping the unsaved in the dark. Christ called it the blind trying to lead the blind.

Let's get this straight. Observing the law is saying the sacrificial death of Christ never happened.

 

[nomadictheist]

God loves His laws just as the earthly king loves his rules. They protect His children from law breakers, it's penalties acting as deterrents to those who would harm them when they are unrestrained and acting in unlawful ways. However, when a rule itself harms those it is supposed to protect, such as, for example, when orderly traffic and red lights comes in the way of a precious citizen of the king from reaching a hospital in time, the king sends outriders to force the traffic to pull over, suspends the lights and makes straight the path for the ambulance to reach its destination in a life saving manner. The law was made for man, not man for the law.

Similarly, when the Jews stopped Christ from healing on the Sabbath, He showed them their hypocrisy, since they rescued their cattle that had fallen into pits on the Sabbath and ruled it was right to save lives on the Sabbath. Even in orthodox quarters of modern Jerusalem, ambulances are allows to operate and doctors to work on the Sabbath. Jesus even used the precedent of David saving the lives of his men by letting them eat the shew bread.

Telling people to observe Sabbath is to tell them that God has not made available their rest from their own efforts to be saved, through works of the law, the rest available by hearing with faith, this salvation available because of the atoning of the cross, of which the sacrifices were a foreshadowing.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

By doing this, people who insist on law observance are keeping the unsaved in the dark. Christ called it the blind trying to lead the blind.

Let's get this straight. Observing the law is saying the sacrificial death of Christ never happened.

You need to better define "observance of the law."

If you mean observance of the law (including sacrificial and civil laws) as a means to salvation, then certainly.

But we are told many time that "loving others fulfills the law," so if you do what we are commanded and "love others" you will naturally "observe" the law of God.. And of course, God leaves a written documentation of His law for us to reference when we're confused, as we - being human - so often are.

And just a tip for you - what Jesus Christ called the "blind leading the blind" was actually a reference to the Pharisees who were too blind to see the true purpose of the law and the prophets, and actually broke the law in many instances by redefining or "interpreting" it to suit their own purposes.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You need to better define "observance of the law."

If you mean observance of the law (including sacrificial and civil laws) as a means to salvation, then certainly.

But we are told many time that "loving others fulfills the law," so if you do what we are commanded and "love others" you will naturally "observe" the law of God.. And of course, God leaves a written documentation of His law for us to reference when we're confused, as we - being human - so often are.

And just a tip for you - what Jesus Christ called the "blind leading the blind" was actually a reference to the Pharisees who were too blind to see the true purpose of the law and the prophets, and actually broke the law in many instances by redefining or "interpreting" it to suit their own purposes.

The problem with human existence is that we have a mind that knows right from wrong and a body that cannot meet God's requirement of perfectly doing right.

Jesus solved the problem by

1 removing the requirement

2 enabling us to subdue the body, by hearing with faith.

Obviously, those who are not under the law are free.

Obviously, those who are free can choose to do anything they want.

Obviously, if we return to pandering to the body we will not have eternal life.

Obviously, if we put to death by the Spirit the deeds of the body we will have eternal life, be the blessing to the world that the Seed of Abraham were promised they would be.

Hearing with faith is not obeying the law. Hearing with faith is believing what we hear of the gospel message.

That if we repent, turn away from serving self, through serving idols that did not crate us, to serving God who is our Father, our spirits will be seated with Christ in high places. Some people call it baptism, making a good confession.

That if we repent, turn away from serving self, through serving idols that did not crate us, to serving God who is our Father, our sins well be forgiven and our bodies will be cleaned from the habits that cause us to sin those sins, and we will be the blessing to the world that the promise to Abraham describes about by being sin bearers, unvlemisged sacrifices, sharing in Christ's afflictions and in what remains of his work. Some people call this communion, eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood.

Strangely, no observance of law is present in these two instances of hearing with belief.

 

[nomadictheist]

I don't have a whole lot of time right now, but essentially my argument is this:
Obedience is obedience, whether it's willing obedience by faith or not is only coincidental. That's why John says that we know we love the children of God (this hearkens back to "this is My commandment, that you love one another") if we love God and keep His commandments.

The only thing that I have denied (and will continue to do so) is that the law is abolished and done away with. The covenant of the law is done away with - or rather, superseded by a higher covenant. But the law of God remains as the only just and righteous standard of right and wrong.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I don't have a whole lot of time right now, but essentially my argument is this:
Obedience is obedience, whether it's willing obedience by faith or not is only coincidental. That's why John says that we know we love the children of God (this hearkens back to "this is My commandment, that you love one another") if we love God and keep His commandments.

The only thing that I have denied (and will continue to do so) is that the law is abolished and done away with. The covenant of the law is done away with - or rather, superseded by a higher covenant. But the law of God remains as the only just and righteous standard of right and wrong.

Paul contrasted works of the law with hearing with faith, circumcision with hearing with faith.

God's people observed works of the law for centuries, but never received the Holy Spirit, never were a blessing to the world, like Christ was, by being unblemished sacrifices.

The only way that we can be blessings to the world, through receiving the Holy Spirit is by hearing with faith.

Confessing unto being baptised into Christ. Confessing unto being united with Christ.

Justification and sanctification.

The first rescued our spirit. The second rescued our body.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, He is faithful to forgive and the blood of His Son cleanses us of all righteousness.

Make the tree good, then only will the fruit be good.

Make the person holy, then his deeds will all be lawful. Greater love hath no man than this, but that he laid down his life for his brother.

All of the law can be summed up in this, love God and love all those made in His image.

 

[nomadictheist]

Paul contrasted works of the law with hearing with faith, circumcision with hearing with faith.

God's people observed works of the law for centuries, but never received the Holy Spirit, never were a blessing to the world, like Christ was, by being unblemished sacrifices.

The only way that we can be blessings to the world, through receiving the Holy Spirit is by hearing with faith.

Confessing unto being baptised into Christ. Confessing unto being united with Christ.

Justification and sanctification.

The first rescued our spirit. The second rescued our body.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, He is faithful to forgive and the blood of His Son cleanses us of all righteousness.

Make the tree good, then only will the fruit be good.

Make the person holy, then his deeds will all be lawful. Greater love hath no man than this, but that he laid down his life for his brother.

All of the law can be summed up in this, love God and love all those made in His image.

Actually to say that God's people were not a blessing to other nations is in error. All the way back to the time of Abraham, God's people were already a blessing to the nations.

Abraham, with other kings from surrounding nations, rescued Lot and all those with him.
Joseph, by God's appointing, saved the land of Egypt from a devastating 7 year famine.
Daniel, by God's power, rightly interpreted the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, saving all the wise men and seers in Babylon from death.
Jonah, by God's instruction, prophesied that the city of Nineveh (of the Assyrians) would be destroyed, which resulted in the repentance of the entire city and the relenting of God.
And there are many other examples. I don't have time to go into all of them.

That aside, I agree that God has empowered His people under the new covenant to be a blessing like they never could be in the old covenant.

I am also well aware of (and in agreement with) the doctrines of justification and sanctification. We are justified through faith (and, as James says, the works that make that faith evident). We are being sanctified as God's children through the work of the Holy Spirit.

However, God's law remains as the only true, righteous, and good measure of what is right and what is wrong. Sin is (as John tells us) the transgression of the law, and God's children are to abstain from "continuing to sin." Thus, keeping the commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit is part of being a child of God, and when we sin (break the commandments) we confess our sin to God and He forgives us and cleanses us of our unrighteousness.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Actually to say that God's people were not a blessing to other nations is in error. All the way back to the time of Abraham, God's people were already a blessing to the nations.

Abraham, with other kings from surrounding nations, rescued Lot and all those with him.
Joseph, by God's appointing, saved the land of Egypt from a devastating 7 year famine.
Daniel, by God's power, rightly interpreted the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, saving all the wise men and seers in Babylon from death.
Jonah, by God's instruction, prophesied that the city of Nineveh (of the Assyrians) would be destroyed, which resulted in the repentance of the entire city and the relenting of God.
And there are many other examples. I don't have time to go into all of them.

That aside, I agree that God has empowered His people under the new covenant to be a blessing like they never could be in the old covenant.

I am also well aware of (and in agreement with) the doctrines of justification and sanctification. We are justified through faith (and, as James says, the works that make that faith evident). We are being sanctified as God's children through the work of the Holy Spirit.

However, God's law remains as the only true, righteous, and good measure of what is right and what is wrong. Sin is (as John tells us) the transgression of the law, and God's children are to abstain from "continuing to sin." Thus, keeping the commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit is part of being a child of God, and when we sin (break the commandments) we confess our sin to God and He forgives us and cleanses us of our unrighteousness.

The only command to keep is the command to confess that we are incapable of keeping the law. Paul called the church of Galatia idiots, for trying to becoming good trees, able to bear good fruit, sanctified, able to share in Christ's afflictions and complete what remains of His work, by trying to keep the law. They had been justified by confessing they were helpless, like the publican in the temple, and the only way they could be sanctified was by persevering in confession. We are all clean, we don't need a bath, but we need footwashing, to be found blameless, unblemished, to be living sacrifices, the only acceptable form of worship.


Galatians 3:13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ONATREE”—14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)




You misunderstand here Jesus was made under the law and he kept it perfectly we can't he did. Every man has broken the law therefore All men deserve hell. If we break one law we have broken them all. That is why we have all been concluded under sin and why all need Jesus by faith

BTW I agree that Christ is the only one who was sinless - but Christ's point in Mark 7 is not that they have done well or that they simply could not help themselves - rather the details in the chapter are very different to the point of abolishing worship itself.

Christ's point in Mark 7 as quoted above. is not "you have done well in breaking my Law - continue on".

Romans 8 makes the case that the lost do not keep God's Law and cannot do it - but the saved can for with the saved the New Covenant applies and the "Law is written in the mind and heart" Heb 8:6-10.

Which is why I post this-

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68478425, member: 235244"]so then God's Law is NOT ended and the Bible evidence for this fact as noted on this first page - is irrefutable.

And of Course Christ - God the Son is "God at Sinai" giving the Ten Commandments -- the covenant written in stone.

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

And of course -- this -

According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

....

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I have not "run" from anything.

You are the one who is running - from the words of Jesus. You think that you can hide behind Paul, but if he were alive he would leave you no place to hide.

I don't run from the words of Jesus . Many misunderstand that Jesus was made under the law. He kept all the law as a man and was perfect. He is the only man that could perfectly satisfy Gods law. He did it for us. And no man could do that. Jesus did tell them to do all God asked them because the things in the law were imposed upon them until the time of reformation Hebrews 9. They had to do all the sacrifices and do all that was required.

I also quoted Paul, who said in Romans 7 that the law is good and righteous,

Show me that quote, and use the word righteous in it. The exact quote in Romans 7 is similar

"12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good....14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. " (Romans 7:12,14)

Interesting that Paul says the "LAW" is holy and then he speaks of the "commandment". The work of the law, being spiritual is also written n the hearts of the Gentiles in Romans 2;14. But the Law of Moses written on stones shows a distinction. The law on stones or the letter kills as Paul says. But the Spirit gives life. When God gave the law we read,

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." ( Deut. 30:11-14)

The law written in stones reflected the work of the law inward in the Light of Christ that reproves all sin. All men have this true Light. All men know the conviction in their conscience of Gods light that exposes sin.

We also read of

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8;2)

Here we see the law of the Spirit of life and the law of sin and death. Paul said that the law is spiritual. But men are carnal sold under sin. So men cannot be free in the Spirit as they are in the sin and not born again. What does God do to show them they are exceeding sinful? He give them the commandment written in stone. if men had ignored the work of the law given through Gods Light to convict all men. God would write commands to show them that they are sinful. By showing man what they should not do and exposing them they would realize they are sinful and if they repent and believe they can have the law of the Spirit of life that will make them free from the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is the commandment that was applied to their sinful hearts and lives. The commandment which they may have thought was unto life they found to be unto death it became a law of sin and death to them who sinned because they were given the knowledge of their sin by it. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the life believers are n. This is Gods life in Christ and love.

Interestingly when we are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus we are free from the law of sin and death, or the commandment that was a ministration of death and condemnation to us. Believers are in a new and living way, not in the oldness of the letter. Some trying to establish their own righteousness by the commandment and the law of Moses, following an outward code or commandment, and they miss the intent of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law is there to show men that they are not in God's law of life and love and to bring them unto Christ to be justified by faith. In the law God provided a sacrifice for sin and the shed blood was a type of Jesus death for their sin.

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and Jesus said to keep the law. Jesus was not saying he could keep it, he was using the law as a searchlight put on his wicked heart to show that he did not keep it. When he would realize this then he would come to Jesus broken and humbled and in need of salvation. And he could only come by faith, not any works of the law or of his own effort.

Interestingly in Romans 7 Paul also says,

"4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;"(Romans 7:4)

Here we see that expression "dead to the law". We are alive unto Christ and in him not alive unto the law and under it. If i am dead to something it has no more attachment to me. I am not lead by it.

Paul also says a few verses down,

"6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."(Romans 7:6)

Here we see again we are "delivered from the law". This deliverance shows that those who are under the law are in bondage to it and are dead in that bondage. The newness of the spirit is not like the oldness of the letter. The Jews were bound up under the law. Paul often warns men of not going back into bondage of the law and seeking to be justified by the works of the law. When men go back into law, and such things as sabbaths and circumcision, tithing, feast days, trying to keep the ten commandments in an outward code of works etc. they miss it. Jesus brought out the spiritual aspect in the heart of men breaking the law. Some could try to do an outward act and think they kept the law. For example a man might not have committed adultery with a woman. But Jesus said if they look upon a woman and lust after her in their heart they have committed adultery already.

Whenever we talk of the Mosaic law and the old covenant with all its ordinaces and laws in stone. We must have the right perspective of it and know why it was added;. it was added because of transgressions. It was part of an old covenant that is done away abolished, faded and decayed in Hebrews, waxed old. We must use words like "dead to the law", "delivered from the law", not "under the law", "free from the law", "the law is not of faith, "the end of the law", etc.

We must examine all the details of what it means to be "under the law. And when we have seen what that expression means "under the law", we must also understand this verse,

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

and the law did not bring death. Sin brought death, and the law exposed sin.

Yes men are in sin and death by sin. The law did however have the death sentence for certain sins. But as far as the law bringing death. Mans sinful nature cannot keep the law and so the law to him is a law of sin and death. I would not use that exact expression as you do.
I say it this way,

""7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."(2 Corinthians 3:7-9)

Notice that the Mosaic law written in stones is a ministration of death and condemnation. The ministration of the Mosaic law is not life, as we read,

"...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law"(Galatians 3:21)

only the law of the spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS, can make us free.

and Paul said,

"19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."(Galatians 2;19)

You continually confuse the law of God with the old covenant under the law. While Paul often says we are free from the law and from sin, he also says frequently that we are slaves to Christ.

To be bound up under the law and to be a bondservant of CHrist are very different things. Christ makes us free from the law of sin and death. The law binds men up in their sin and exposes them and shows them their dead condition and lack of love in the heart etc. Christ makes us free and fills us with love and then we fulfill the law in Him. All true believers are not without law to God, They live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh or the works of the law or man.

2 Corinthians 3: Paul makes it exceedingly clear what he is talking about in verse 6 where he says that we are ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit.

And from this premise he continues to talk about how the covenant of the letter of the law brings death, because there is nobody who can keep the entire law. The new covenant of the Spirit brings life, because by God's power we are becoming obedient children as we have been commanded.

Yes, and.... I have been saying this all along and those who still try to go back under the law and keep the Old covenant have the veil on their heart even when reading the Old testament. Paul also refers to the tables of stone and Moses, and says "Not as Moses"

And I'm still waiting to hear who abolished the law... Jesus didn't - He said so Himself. So who did?

This is who "abolished it"

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

and the Spirit of God led Paul to write this,

2 Corinthians 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"

I've noticed you run from anyone who quotes Jesus to you (or anybody besides Paul, for that matter).

No I do not run from Jesus or His words at all.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus is the one who fulfilled all the law and did all things for mankind. He didn't destroy the law, for we know that even today the law is good if a man use it lawfully. But Jesus fulfilled it and made us free from it, ended it for believers as to the ministration of the Mosaic law, we are dead to the law through the body of Christ. Fulfilled means finished as well. As he said on the cross "it is finished". But we read about the law being fulfilled these things as well,

Romans 8:4
"hat the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law"

To fulifill the law is to live in the life and spirit not in the oldness of the letter. We see also that as believers are born again and have the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus making them free and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. They also fulfill the law in love. The end of the law for them is charity out of a pure heart and faith unfeigned. 1 Tomothy 1.

Galatians 5:14
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

I like the expression "all the law is fulfilled"

As Peter said, there are those who take the writings of Paul that are hard to understand and twist them...

Them you better watch out as you seek to put people under the law still.

Perhaps you should study the covenant of the law and the new covenant. It might help you understand the difference between freedom from the covenant of the law and whether the law is abolished and done away with. (I don't think you'll much enjoy fighting Jesus on that one).

I dont fight Jesus on that. And I have been studying 30 years is quite long and i am still studying. You need to read verses like this about the old and new covenant.


"9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."(Hebrews 10:9)

"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers"(Hebrews 8:7-9)

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)

When something vanishes away where is it?

Just another note about Paul... Paul frequently says that we must not continue to live in SIN. But we know from John that sin is transgression of the law.

yes all believers can use the law lawfully to expose sin. But it is not made for a righteous man, and we are no longer under the law or the schoolmaster. When a person sins now as a believer the law can be used to expose sin. But the Spirit will reprove the world of sin and God shines His light in the hearts of all believers and convicts them and chastises them .

Now I know you're not too fond of John,

You are being presumptuos here and lying. I love the words of John and I love John my brother who I will see in heaven one day. He is a blessed saint and the words of the Lord through him are wonderful.

but the epistles of John are just as much the word of God as the epistles of Paul (who himself speaks to the righteousness and goodness of the law).

Yes i know and I believe all the holy scriptures. You are trying to create a straw man argument and try to tear down something I never even implied.

I guess I should apologize for saying I'll hit on all your references... To envelop the entire book of Hebrews would take too long for this forum, but nowhere in Hebrews does Paul (or the author of Hebrews if it's not Paul) say that the law is abolished and done away with.

These words are very close

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)"

But either way Paul said it very clearly in 2 Cor 3. As I showed often. And I know it shatters many religious groups whole ideas and doctrines. But let it. Many are still bound up under law and sabbaths and tithing etc etc.

Just a hint - one of the first principles of exegesis is that if something in the text seems to clash with other doctrine in the Bible, you need to look at other teaching on the same doctrine to find the best interpretation of it.

Nothing I have said clashes with anything I have said. But your words however do often. You need to study in the truth more.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The law is not made for a righteous man... there is none righteous, no not one.

Wrong again, you mix up two righteousness. You are to be ashamed not rightly dividing the word of truth.

First read this verse

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"(1 John 2:7)

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29)

You misunderstand 1 Timothy 1 again. The righteous men Paul speaks of in 1 Timothy are believers who are not in their own righteousness.

"5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," ( 1 Timothy 1:5-9)

The Mosaic law was added to men because of transgressions and by the law is the knowledge of sin. The righteous here are not speaking of self righteous men, or else that would be a sin as well and included in the list of sins and ungodliness.

"19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"(Romans 3:19-24)

Notice that whatever the law says it is for those UNDER the law. Not for those who are free from the law of sin and death and for righteous men in Christ who are new creations in Christ.

The law here is for every guilty person, and to show sin. That is the reason for it. Paul says whatthings soever the law saith. that would include the use of it. whatsoever.

Notice the words "but now...without the law

There is none righteous in themself. One of the problems that the Jews did is ,

"3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise,"(romans 10:3-6)

Here we see that God's righteousness is the key not mans righteousness. The Jews sought to establish their own righteousness by the law. Notice again how that Christ is the "end of the law . In Christ believers are made the righteousness of God. The righteousness of the law is different than the righteousness of faith. You are only seeing the righteousness of the law it seems.

"4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Romans 8:4)

while it is true that

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;"

it is also true that in Christ we can work righteousness

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Psalm 15:2
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart."

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

Malachi 3:18
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."

And where do you keep repeating "the law is not of faith" from?

from here,

Galatians 3:12
"And the law is not of faith:"

The key for using it was to show that the "LAW" is not of faith. Yet those who are bound up under the law. Say they are in faith. But under the law they try to establish works of the law and that is not of faith.

"30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"(Romans 9:30-32)

When you call God's law unjust and evil,

I never do this you say evil against me here and lie and build a straw man argument based upon your misunderstandings and try to tear it down which I never said. I do not say God's law is unjust or evil. God foirbid!!

Repent of this false charge.

Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law (something you keep trying to work around but just can't get there). So if Jesus didn't abolish the law, who did? Certainly not Paul. He would make no such claim.

Show me in the bible (the King James Bible which is the bible for man) where Jesus said the word "abolish". he said he did not come to destroy the law he fulfilled it. Different Greek words. And Jesus was made under the law as i said before. Jesus Kept all the law. Destroy G2647 abolish G2673. And in 2 Cor 3 the words "done away " are also 2673, the same as "abolished" in Greek.

I would echo Jesus warning (again) here as well: "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

I would warn you also not to bring men back into bondage. Jesus also knew that they had to keep all the law then, animal sacrifices and all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I have not "run" from anything.

You are the one who is running - from the words of Jesus. You think that you can hide behind Paul, but if he were alive he would leave you no place to hide.

I don't run from the words of Jesus . Many misunderstand that Jesus was made under the law. He kept all the law as a man and was perfect. He is the only man that could perfectly satisfy Gods law. He did it for us. And no man could do that. Jesus did tell them to do all God asked them because the things in the law were imposed upon them until the time of reformation Hebrews 9. They had to do all the sacrifices and do all that was required.

I also quoted Paul, who said in Romans 7 that the law is good and righteous,

Show me that quote, and use the word righteous in it. The exact quote in Romans 7 is similar

"12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good....14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. " (Romans 7:12,14)

Interesting that Paul says the "LAW" is holy and then he speaks of the "commandment". The work of the law, being spiritual is also written n the hearts of the Gentiles in Romans 2;14. But the Law of Moses written on stones shows a distinction. The law on stones or the letter kills as Paul says. But the Spirit gives life. When God gave the law we read,

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." ( Deut. 30:11-14)

The law written in stones reflected the work of the law inward in the Light of Christ that reproves all sin. All men have this true Light. All men know the conviction in their conscience of Gods light that exposes sin.

We also read of

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8;2)

Here we see the law of the Spirit of life and the law of sin and death. Paul said that the law is spiritual. But men are carnal sold under sin. So men cannot be free in the Spirit as they are in the sin and not born again. What does God do to show them they are exceeding sinful? He give them the commandment written in stone. if men had ignored the work of the law given through Gods Light to convict all men. God wuld write commands to show them that they are sinful. By showing man what they should not do and exposing them they would realize they are sinful and if they repent and believe they can have the law of the Spirit of life that will make them free from the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is the commandment that was applied to their sinful hearts and lives. The commandment which they may have thought was unto life they found to be unto death it became a law of sin and death to them who sinned because they were given the knowledge of their sin by it. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the life believers are n. This is Gods life in Christ and love.

Interestingly when we are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus we are free from the law of sin and death, or the commandment that was a ministration of death and condemnation to us. Believers are in a new and living way, not in the oldness of the letter. Some trying to establish their own righteousness by the commandment and the law of Moses, following an outward code or commandment, and they miss the intent of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law is there to show men that they are not in God's law of life and love and to bring them unto Christ to be justified by faith. In the law God provided a sacrifice for sin and the shed blood was a type of Jesus death for their sin.

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and Jesus said to keep the law. Jesus was not saying he could keep it, he was using the law as a searchlight put on his wicked heart to show that he did not keep it. When he would realize this then he would come to Jesus broken and humbled and in need of salvation. And he could only come by faith, not any works of the law or of his own effort.

Interestingly in Romans 7 Paul also says,

"4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;"(Romans 7:4)

Here we see that expression "dead to the law". We are alive unto Christ and in him not alive unto the law and under it. If i am dead to something it has no more attachment to me. I am not lead by it.

Paul also says a few verses down,

"6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."(Romans 7:6)

Here we see again we are "delivered from the law". This deliverance shows that those who are under the law are in bondage to it and are dead in that bondage. The newness of the spirit is not like the oldness of the letter. The Jews were bound up under the law. Paul often warns men of not going back into bondage of the law and seeking to be justified by the works of the law. When men go back into law, and such things as sabbaths and circumcision, tithing, feast days, trying to keep the ten commandments in an outward code of works etc. they miss it. Jesus brought out the spiritual aspect in the heart of men breaking the law. Some could try to do an outward act and think they kept the law. For example a man might not have committed adultery with a woman. But Jesus said if they look upon a woman and lust after her in their heart they have committed adultery already.

Whenever we talk of the Mosaic law and the old covenant with all its ordinaces and laws in stone. We must have the right perspective of it and know why it was added;. it was added because of transgressions. It was part of an old covenant that is done away abolished, faded and decayed in Hebrews, waxed old. We must use words like "dead to the law", "delivered from the law", not "under the law", "free from the law", "the law is not of faith, "the end of the law", etc.

We must examine all the details of what it means to be "under the law. And when we have seen what that expression means "under the law", we must also understand this verse,

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

and the law did not bring death. Sin brought death, and the law exposed sin.

Yes men are in sin and death by sin. The law did however have the death sentence for certain sins. But as far as the law bringing death. Mans sinful nature cannot keep the law and so the law to him is a law of sin and death. I would not use that exact expression as you do.
I say it this way,

""7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."(2 Corinthians 3:7-9)

Notice that the Mosaic law written in stones is a ministration of death and condemnation. The ministration of the Mosaic law is not life, as we read,

"...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law"(Galatians 3:21)

only the law of the spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS, can make us free.

and Paul said,

"19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."(Galatians 2;19)

You continually confuse the law of God with the old covenant under the law. While Paul often says we are free from the law and from sin, he also says frequently that we are slaves to Christ.

To be bound up under the law and to be a bondservant of CHrist are very different things. Christ makes us free from the law of sin and death. The law binds men up in their sin and exposes them and shows them their dead condition and lack of love in the heart etc. Christ makes us free and fills us with love and then we fulfill the law in Him. All true believers are not without law to God, They live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh or the works of the law or man.

2 Corinthians 3: Paul makes it exceedingly clear what he is talking about in verse 6 where he says that we are ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit.

And from this premise he continues to talk about how the covenant of the letter of the law brings death, because there is nobody who can keep the entire law. The new covenant of the Spirit brings life, because by God's power we are becoming obedient children as we have been commanded.

Yes, and.... I have been saying this all along and those who still try to go back under the law and keep the Old covenant have the veil on their heart even when reading the Old testament. Paul also refers to the tables of stone and Moses, and says "Not as Moses"

And I'm still waiting to hear who abolished the law... Jesus didn't - He said so Himself. So who did?

This is who "abolished it"

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

and the Spirit of God led Paul to write this,

2 Corinthians 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"

I've noticed you run from anyone who quotes Jesus to you (or anybody besides Paul, for that matter).

No I do not run from Jesus or His words at all.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus is the one who fulfilled all the law and did all things for mankind. He didn't destroy the law, for we know that even today the law is good if a man use it lawfully. But Jesus fulfilled it and made us free from it, ended it for believers as to the ministration of the Mosaic law, we are dead to the law through the body of Christ. Fulfilled means finished as well. As he said on the cross "it is finished". But we read about the law being fulfilled these things as well,

Romans 8:4
"hat the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law"

To fulifill the law is to live in the life and spirit not in the oldness of the letter. We see also that as believers are born again and have the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus making them free and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. They also fulfill the law in love. The end of the law for them is charity out of a pure heart and faith unfeigned. 1 Tomothy 1.

Galatians 5:14
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

I like the expression "all the law is fulfilled"

As Peter said, there are those who take the writings of Paul that are hard to understand and twist them...

Them you better watch out as you seek to put people under the law still.

Perhaps you should study the covenant of the law and the new covenant. It might help you understand the difference between freedom from the covenant of the law and whether the law is abolished and done away with. (I don't think you'll much enjoy fighting Jesus on that one).

I dont fight Jesus on that. And I have been studying 30 years is quite long and i am still studying. You need to read verses like this about the old and new covenant.


"9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."(Hebrews 10:9)

"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers"(Hebrews 8:7-9)

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)

When something vanishes away where is it?

Just another note about Paul... Paul frequently says that we must not continue to live in SIN. But we know from John that sin is transgression of the law.

yes all believers can use the law lawfully to expose sin. But it is not made for a righteous man, and we are no longer under the law or the schoolmaster. When a person sins now as a believer the law can be used to expose sin. But the Spirit will reprove the world of sin and God shines His light in the hearts of all believers and convicts them and chastises them .

Now I know you're not too fond of John,

You are being presumptuos here and lying. I love the words of John and I love John my brother who I will see in heaven one day. He is a blessed saint and the words of the Lord through him are wonderful.

but the epistles of John are just as much the word of God as the epistles of Paul (who himself speaks to the righteousness and goodness of the law).

Yes i know and I believe all the holy scriptures. You are trying to create a straw man argument and try to tear down something I never even implied.

I guess I should apologize for saying I'll hit on all your references... To envelop the entire book of Hebrews would take too long for this forum, but nowhere in Hebrews does Paul (or the author of Hebrews if it's not Paul) say that the law is abolished and done away with.

These words are very close

"
"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)"

But either way Paul said it very clearly in 2 Cor 3. As I showed often. And I know it shatters many religious groups whole ideas and doctrines. But let it. Many are still bound up under law and sabbaths and tithing etc etc.

Just a hint - one of the first principles of exegesis is that if something in the text seems to clash with other doctrine in the Bible, you need to look at other teaching on the same doctrine to find the best interpretation of it.

Nothing I say clashes, but what you say does

 

[LoveofTruth]

Just a word to all.

These issues are difficult at times, and we need to be patient and always gracious.

Love should motivate us.

We don't start out wanting to be hard on others for the way they respond , sometimes we can be strong in defense of a truth. And others will be hurt when it was not needed.

Examine the scriptures, try to understand where the other person comes from, be kind, rebuke if needed, exhort, warn. But do it in the spirit of meekness considering yourself.

We all have enough enemies out there, endevour to maintain the unity of the spirit assuming those we talk to are in the spirit. if they are not, pray for them and wait for the right words.

Proverbs 25:11
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

the righteous are bold as a lion, but they are also harmless as doves and motivated by love. We must always be more concerned about winning the lost over just winning an argument.

God bless all

 

[nomadictheist]

I don't run from the words of Jesus . Many misunderstand that Jesus was made under the law. He kept all the law as a man and was perfect. He is the only man that could perfectly satisfy Gods law. He did it for us. And no man could do that. Jesus did tell them to do all God asked them because the things in the law were imposed upon them until the time of reformation Hebrews 9. They had to do all the sacrifices and do all that was required.


Show me that quote, and use the word righteous in it. The exact quote in Romans 7 is similar

Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Just because Paul doesn't say that the law is holy, just, good, and righteous all in the same place doesn't mean that he doesn't say it.

"12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good....14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. " (Romans 7:12,14)

Interesting that Paul says the "LAW" is holy and then he speaks of the "commandment". The work of the law, being spiritual is also written n the hearts of the Gentiles in Romans 2;14. But the Law of Moses written on stones shows a distinction. The law on stones or the letter kills as Paul says. But the Spirit gives life. When God gave the law we read,

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." ( Deut. 30:11-14)

The law written in stones reflected the work of the law inward in the Light of Christ that reproves all sin. All men have this true Light. All men know the conviction in their conscience of Gods light that exposes sin.

"If you love me, keep my commandments..." (John 14:15)

We also read of

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8;2)

Here we see the law of the Spirit of life and the law of sin and death. Paul said that the law is spiritual. But men are carnal sold under sin. So men cannot be free in the Spirit as they are in the sin and not born again. What does God do to show them they are exceeding sinful? He give them the commandment written in stone. if men had ignored the work of the law given through Gods Light to convict all men. God wuld write commands to show them that they are sinful. By showing man what they should not do and exposing them they would realize they are sinful and if they repent and believe they can have the law of the Spirit of life that will make them free from the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is the commandment that was applied to their sinful hearts and lives. The commandment which they may have thought was unto life they found to be unto death it became a law of sin and death to them who sinned because they were given the knowledge of their sin by it. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the life believers are n. This is Gods life in Christ and love.

Paul defines the law of sin and death prior to this... let me show you the scripture:
"For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Interestingly when we are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus we are free from the law of sin and death, or the commandment that was a ministration of death and condemnation to us. Believers are in a new and living way, not in the oldness of the letter. Some trying to establish their own righteousness by the commandment and the law of Moses, following an outward code or commandment, and they miss the intent of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law is there to show men that they are not in God's law of life and love and to bring them unto Christ to be justified by faith. In the law God provided a sacrifice for sin and the shed blood was a type of Jesus death for their sin.

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and Jesus said to keep the law. Jesus was not saying he could keep it, he was using the law as a searchlight put on his wicked heart to show that he did not keep it. When he would realize this then he would come to Jesus broken and humbled and in need of salvation. And he could only come by faith, not any works of the law or of his own effort.

Interestingly in Romans 7 Paul also says,

"4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;"(Romans 7:4)

Again, you mistake the law of God for the covenant of the law. The covenant of the law required that in order to keep the covenant one must keep the law.

Here we see that expression "dead to the law". We are alive unto Christ and in him not alive unto the law and under it. If i am dead to something it has no more attachment to me. I am not lead by it.

Paul also says a few verses down,

"6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."(Romans 7:6)

Here we see again we are "delivered from the law". This deliverance shows that those who are under the law are in bondage to it and are dead in that bondage. The newness of the spirit is not like the oldness of the letter. The Jews were bound up under the law. Paul often warns men of not going back into bondage of the law and seeking to be justified by the works of the law. When men go back into law, and such things as sabbaths and circumcision, tithing, feast days, trying to keep the ten commandments in an outward code of works etc. they miss it. Jesus brought out the spiritual aspect in the heart of men breaking the law. Some could try to do an outward act and think they kept the law. For example a man might not have committed adultery with a woman. But Jesus said if they look upon a woman and lust after her in their heart they have committed adultery already.

Whenever we talk of the Mosaic law and the old covenant with all its ordinaces and laws in stone. We must have the right perspective of it and know why it was added;. it was added because of transgressions. It was part of an old covenant that is done away abolished, faded and decayed in Hebrews, waxed old. We must use words like "dead to the law", "delivered from the law", not "under the law", "free from the law", "the law is not of faith, "the end of the law", etc.

We must examine all the details of what it means to be "under the law. And when we have seen what that expression means "under the law", we must also understand this verse,

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Regardless of how many times I make the distinction, you continually fail to grasp the difference between being obedient and being under the law. Obviously that won't change, and you'll keep teaching people that God made a mistake with His law

Yes men are in sin and death by sin. The law did however have the death sentence for certain sins. But as far as the law bringing death. Mans sinful nature cannot keep the law and so the law to him is a law of sin and death. I would not use that exact expression as you do.
I say it this way,

""7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."(2 Corinthians 3:7-9)

Notice that the Mosaic law written in stones is a ministration of death and condemnation. The ministration of the Mosaic law is not life, as we read,

"...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law"(Galatians 3:21)

only the law of the spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS, can make us free.

and Paul said,

"19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."(Galatians 2;19)

Again, you fail to grasp the distinction of the law of God and the covenant of the law, which Paul himself makes very distinct.

To be bound up under the law and to be a bondservant of CHrist are very different things. Christ makes us free from the law of sin and death. The law binds men up in their sin and exposes them and shows them their dead condition and lack of love in the heart etc. Christ makes us free and fills us with love and then we fulfill the law in Him. All true believers are not without law to God, They live in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh or the works of the law or man.



Yes, and.... I have been saying this all along and those who still try to go back under the law and keep the Old covenant have the veil on their heart even when reading the Old testament. Paul also refers to the tables of stone and Moses, and says "Not as Moses"



This is who "abolished it"

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

and the Spirit of God led Paul to write this,

2 Corinthians 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"

Notice the careful distinction of contained in ordinances. These verses are both talking about the ordinances that governed the penalties for breaking the law and the sacrifices required to make one right with God. Now the only sacrifice that can truly save us has been made, so these ordinances are done away with.

No I do not run from Jesus or His words at all.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus is the one who fulfilled all the law and did all things for mankind. He didn't destroy the law, for we know that even today the law is good if a man use it lawfully. But Jesus fulfilled it and made us free from it, ended it for believers as to the ministration of the Mosaic law, we are dead to the law through the body of Christ. Fulfilled means finished as well. As he said on the cross "it is finished". But we read about the law being fulfilled these things as well,

I love how you always, always, always leave out the verses following:
"For whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Romans 8:4
"hat the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law"

To fulifill the law is to live in the life and spirit not in the oldness of the letter. We see also that as believers are born again and have the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus making them free and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. They also fulfill the law in love. The end of the law for them is charity out of a pure heart and faith unfeigned. 1 Tomothy 1.

Galatians 5:14
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

I like the expression "all the law is fulfilled"

I'm sure you do. The problem is that you don't understand it. All the law is fulfilled in this commandment because if you love your neighbor you will keep the law, since the purpose of the law is to show you what it means to love your neighbor.

Them you better watch out as you seek to put people under the law still.

No I don't. I put the law up as a standard of right and wrong, and the righteous, good, holy, and just commandments of God which we as His children should try to obey.
I also declare that the law is not abolished and done away with, as Jesus said He did not come to do. He came to fulfill the law, yes. In fulfilling the law he did not nullify it or make it void. Rather he confirmed the validity of the law by becoming the only sacrifice that could truly save people. Now when we fail to meet God's righteous standards, rather than coming to a physical temple to offer sacrifices under a human high priest we put our trust in the only sacrifice that is truly able to cover our sins and repent of breaking God's righteous commandments.

I dont fight Jesus on that. And I have been studying 30 years is quite long and i am still studying. You need to read verses like this about the old and new covenant.


"9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."(Hebrews 10:9)

"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers"(Hebrews 8:7-9)

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)

When something vanishes away where is it?

Again the old covenant is gone. The old covenant was the one that required the keeping of the law for salvation. This could never be done, which was why the OLD COVENANT was found to be faulty. The NEW COVENANT requires looking to Jesus Christ for our righteousness, knowing that we can never obtain such through the law because we are sinners. But that does not make the law abolished or done away with.

yes all believers can use the law lawfully to expose sin. But it is not made for a righteous man, and we are no longer under the law or the schoolmaster. When a person sins now as a believer the law can be used to expose sin. But the Spirit will reprove the world of sin and God shines His light in the hearts of all believers and convicts them and chastises them .



You are being presumptuos here and lying. I love the words of John and I love John my brother who I will see in heaven one day. He is a blessed saint and the words of the Lord through him are wonderful.

That's funny. You don't seem to like the ones that say "sin is the transgression of the law" rather than "sin was the transgression of the law." How can sin be the transgression of something that is now null and void?

Yes i know and I believe all the holy scriptures. You are trying to create a straw man argument and try to tear down something I never even implied.



These words are very close

"
"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13)"

But either way Paul said it very clearly in 2 Cor 3. As I showed often. And I know it shatters many religious groups whole ideas and doctrines. But let it. Many are still bound up under law and sabbaths and tithing etc etc.



Nothing I say clashes, but what you say does

And I clearly showed your error in 2 Cor. 3, which you completely ignored. He is, again, talking about the covenant, as he clearly says himself. The covenant is the requirement to keep the law for salvation, not the law itself.

Nothing I say clashes. As God's children, we are to keep His commandments. Not under the old covenant, but under the new. His commandments remain unchanged. The way in which sin is atoned for is what has changed, because the original directives for atonement were never able to truly atone.

You accuse me of putting words in your mouth, but you are the one who continues to repeat that the "law" is abolished and done away with, and not the "old covenant under the law." A rather important distinction.

You say that you agree that God's law is holy and just, but you declare it null and void. Why would a holy and just God make commandments null and void if they're holy and just? You also pointedly ignore the many places where Paul makes it clear that it is the COVENANT of the law that is done away with through the establishment of a new COVENANT.

Show me in the bible (the King James Bible which is the bible for man) where Jesus said the word "abolish". he said he did not come to destroy the law he fulfilled it.

Ah yes... Your true nature shows through. The KJV is the "Bible for man," which of course means that anybody who can't speak English can't read God's holy word for themselves. And, of course, anybody who doesn't understand the old English language also can't understand the Bible... I guess knowing this makes you singularly better equipped to understand the Greek and Hebrew than the scholars that collaborated on any of the other translations.

 

[Chriscb]

Actually 9 10 and 11 are ABOUT Jews. Pretty good stuff too. Jews are part of the Elect for the sake of the Patriarch. All Israel shall be saved. Etc.

I agree with you. The letter is to the church in Rome (who were primarily Gentile Christians). That's not to say there weren't any Jewish Christians within that assembly, only that in Rome, the majority would have been Gentile Christians. Geographically speaking, this makes perfect sense.

Paul wrote:
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants. On the contrary, your offspring will be traced through Isaac. That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring."

I've seen well meaning Christians use this verse to support their belief in universal salvation. A message I cannot agree with, saying "all Israel" (as if the Zionists today represent "all Israel") will be saved. No, only those who are the "children of the promise" represent "all Israel" (according to Paul).

 

[nomadictheist]

The only command to keep is the command to confess that we are incapable of keeping the law. Paul called the church of Galatia idiots, for trying to becoming good trees, able to bear good fruit, sanctified, able to share in Christ's afflictions and complete what remains of His work, by trying to keep the law. They had been justified by confessing they were helpless, like the publican in the temple, and the only way they could be sanctified was by persevering in confession. We are all clean, we don't need a bath, but we need footwashing, to be found blameless, unblemished, to be living sacrifices, the only acceptable form of worship.


Galatians 3:13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ONATREE”—14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So the only command to keep is to confess that we are incapable of keeping the law? Well, that's a relief. Now I can go out and start killing people, having sex with whoever I want, taking other people's stuff if it's nicer than mine, practicing witchcraft, joining a coven, dishonoring my parents, keeping idols in my life, and all kinds of other stuff. Because, after all, I'm incapable of keeping the law. I confess.